Kris Cundrik or kris patrem ?

[Michel]

A small kris (lenght of blade 18 cm) nicely carved jawa handle (7.5 cm), pellet wood sarong, part of a panel of small asian edge weapons.
Is this a kris patrem or a kris cundrik ?
Thanks for your views
Michel

[David]

Michel, this would probably be described as a patrem. A cundrik is a somewhat different animal with a very different style of dapur. There is some good discussion of cundrik on this old thread:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...9&page=2&pp=30

[VVV]

Maybe Michel meant the other kind of Cundrik (the non sword version), related to the Keris Sajen/Majapahit?
Anyway I don't think that this Keris is a Cundrik.

Michael

[Pangeran Datu]

G'day all,

Until there is a standard recognised by all:

- 'Cundrik' is used by many people to refer to keris which are smaller than 'normal' (a traditional measure is a handspan or less).
The preferred 'standard' term is 'Patrem'.
- The keris 'Cundrik' form is for straight keris. Its main feature is that it has a very long, plain 'gandik' which is located at the back, i.e. the 'ganja' is reverse-oriented.

Cheers.

[A. G. Maisey]

As Pangeran Datu points out, the word cunderik can have a number of meanings.

It is a dapur for a Javanese keris, it is the name of a stabbing weapon found in Lombok, it has been given by some people to a small talismanic weapon.

In Solo it seems to be applied to just about any short dagger that another name cannot be found for.In modern Javanese it means " a short dagger".

Personally, I think the word "cunderik" is a good word to stay away from, if possible.

This little keris is a keris patrem.

[Michel]

Thank you for sharing your knowlege.
I conclude that this kris is a kris patrem.

So should be the following one, if I can say :
Kris patrem Palembang, blade of 17.5 cm, handle of 7 cm.

I had to forge a ganja, as it had none, to make the sarong, the original was completely broken and remake a simple mendak. My work can be severely criticized, but is was the only way for me to include it in my panoply of small east Asian weapons.

Michel

[Alam Shah]

Hi could we see bigger pictures of the piece, please.
So that we can comment accordingly on the piece and your handiwork.

Btw, nice collection display.
I especially like the kerambit, rencong and tumbuk lada.

[David]

Originally Posted by VVV

Maybe Michel meant the other kind of Cundrik (the non sword version), related to the Keris Sajen/Majapahit?
Anyway I don't think that this Keris is a Cundrik.

Michael

Even if this is so is not the cundrik that is related to the keris sajen a somewhat different shape and form than the keris? I think Alan is right that in this case it is a term best left out.

Michel, you forged the gonjo and made the sheath from scratch. I'd say that's admirable even if some lines are off. I would also like to see a closer image
I can say this without the close-up. That hilt is too big for this ensemble. More importantly than to the blade, the hilt must be in prooer proportion to the sheath so that it created an acceptable look when the keris is sheathed. Of course you could, given your skills, make a larger sheath for this keris.

[Michel]

Well, I will post bigger pictures, but you can understand that I do not like to expose all my errors !!
Most of the pieces in the panoply have a history, as I forge and made the sheath of the rencong Aceh on the left, the sarong of the small kris in the upper left (you can see the angle is not correct) we talked already of the kris patrem in the center, but below is a kris panjang that was broken, but Nick Rashidin Nik Hussein (Kota Baru) thought that the kris was worth a sarong and a handle and he carved it for me. The badig in the lower right is a beauty.
The grandmother of my wife was sitting in the middle of this big frame on a photo, sometime in the 1920 and I had to restore the frame before organizing the panoply.
I will be coming back but not tonight anymore !
Michel

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by Michel

Well, I will post bigger pictures, but you can understand that I do not like to expose all my errors !!

Lol... don't worry, we're not here to criticize one's work. I personally think that you made a good effort to do such. With correction, you would be able to improve on the current, taking into mind for the future.

Originally Posted by Michel

Most of the pieces in the panoply have a history, as I forge and made the sheath of the rencong Aceh on the left, the sarong of the small kris in the upper left (you can see the angle is not correct) we talked already of the kris patrem in the center,... .

I have two broken rencong sheath. One had been repaired while another, I'm keeping it 'as is'.
(Click below for the link.)
[Rencong Aceh, Sumatra, Hulu Meucangge],
[Rencong Aceh, Sumatra, Hulu Puntung].

Originally Posted by Michel

...but below is a kris panjang that was broken, but Nick Rashidin Nik Hussein (Kota Baru) thought that the kris was worth a sarong and a handle and he carved it for me.

The fittings are beautiful.
Can we see the blade, please?
Was it broken when you got it or it had already been fixed?
The panjang form have similar shorter forms known as bahari, alang and anak alang.

Regarding the late Nik Rashidin... you're lucky to get a master's touch.
I see the fittings are of excellent worksmanship, I can see the 'eye' in the middle of the sheath which is in a 'debek' form.

Originally Posted by Michel

The badik in the lower right is a beauty. The grandmother of my wife was sitting in the middle of this big frame on a photo, sometime in the 1920 and I had to restore the frame before organizing the panoply.
I will be coming back but not tonight anymore !
Michel

Maybe we can talk about these as well, one at a time, in another thread, (if you don't mind).

[Michel]

Thank you Alam Shah for your analysis.
I join here a few pictures of this kris patrem.
You can see that the ganja was made in several layers of welded iron. I had real difficulty to weld such a small piece as to maintain the heat for such a small piece is a difficulty that Alan Maisey will certainly explain better than I can do.
You can also see my difficulty in silvering the the mendak made in copper !
I love the Hulu that I find very elegant. It has a specific name which I cant recall ! Hulu Jambi or Palembang ?
The sampir was in fact recovered and is to my knowlege palembang but the gandar was remade in the closest wood I could find here in Switzerland but it is not too good.
I will make an other message for your the other remarks
Michel

[Michel]

The next is the rencong Aceh.
I love these weapons with their very surprising handle.
For this one I made everything from the blade to the sarong and handle. As I could not find horn or rather black horn nor ebony ((I had to purchase a 100kg piece for a 100gr need !) I replace it by black colored pear tree wood.
The top and bottom par are in gnarl of oak. (excresence of the wood that gives interesting colors and forms as in the kemuning. i.e the eye in the middle of the sheath made by Nik Rashidin)
So much for this one !
A first look at the other rencong: simple but nicely done. Sheath and handle in horn.
Michel

[Michel]

Let us now look at that very short kris panjang !
I found it already broken and with a very ugly piece of wood as handle.
I am still surprised at the width of the gandar that Nik produced.
The reason must probably what you explain : The panjang form have similar shorter forms known as bahari, alang and anak alang.
And I guess he wanted also to show the perfect stria of the "senoh" wood
The hulu jawa demam and the buntu are wery well done.

The next phtos deal with this strange kris jawa(?). No conclusion to be made on the sarong and sampir as I made it with the wood I had here. I made an error in the angle between the sampir and the gandar. I have been also very simple with the buntut.
The hulu is particular and has been discussed on the forum a few years back. Nobody was able to trace its origin. I found it in Jogjakarta.
Michel

[Michel]

I made an error in naming the first weapon a Badig. It is a Tumbuk Lada or peper crusher, at least in Malaysia. I think is a beauty. The shape, the blade, the sampir, evry part is perfectly made without overdoing them.
the next two are Kerambit or Lawi Ayam
Origin unknown but bought in Peninsular Malaysia
Thats all for tonight !
Michel
I have to replace the photo of the kerambit , I will do it later. have to go
Well, I cannot change this picture, I will have to send a new message.

[Michel]

Ok the order of the photos is not perfect but I have not found how to change them.The first is a sewa made for a friend and I cannot find any view of the blade. I remember that I was rather happy with it. the equivalent of the mendak was in brass and was quite a chalenge.
The second photo is the kerambit mentioned earlier. I like it.
The third is the lawi ayam with a bad photo of the previous post.
Michel

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by Michel

... You can see that the ganja was made in several layers of welded iron. I had real difficulty to weld such a small piece as to maintain the heat for such a small piece is a difficulty that Alan Maisey will certainly explain better than I can do.

Thank you for showing us your pieces. Imho, the general outline of the ganja is ok. The length is a little bit too short but at least it got a replacement. The layering is good. With patination, it should blend well with the blade.

Originally Posted by Michel

You can also see my difficulty in silvering the mendak made in copper !
I love the Hulu that I find very elegant. It has a specific name which I cant recall ! Hulu Jambi or Palembang ?

The Palembang Hulu Topeng (mask) is elegant. I like it too. A good effort with the selut. It's tough fabricating from copper.
Have a look at these. The base of the selut are narrower, preferbly fits nicely like the 1st example. These seluts are normally made of silver or white metal. Ive seen some made of 'suassa', (an alloy mix of gold, copper and sometimes other metals). These are softer materials and easier to work with.
(pictures courtesy of BluErf)
[Palembang Selut example 1], [Palembang Selut example 2]

Originally Posted by Michel

The sampir was in fact recovered and is to my knowlege palembang but the gandar was remade in the closest wood I could find here in Switzerland but it is not too good.
I will make an other message for your the other remarks
Michel

A good effort. The wood looks ok, too. The gandar is rather narrower than usual. See the examples of normal Palembang gandars. It's normally broader and less 'roundish' at the bottom, compared to Javanese gandars (in general).
(pictures courtesy of BluErf)
[Palembang gandar 1], [Palembang gandar 2]

Just some comparisons, for our mutual references.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by Michel

The next is the rencong Aceh.
I love these weapons with their very surprising handle.
For this one I made everything from the blade to the sarong and handle. ...
So much for this one !
A first look at the other rencong: simple but nicely done. Sheath and handle in horn.
Michel

Hmmm... quite good. I guess you're using the other piece as an example to make this one. Nicely executed. I like the hilt. But for those whom are familiar with this weapon, they could tell the differences of the blade aesthetics, especially the fret-works at the base.
[Some examples]

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by Michel

Let us now look at that very short kris panjang !
I found it already broken and with a very ugly piece of wood as handle.
I am still surprised at the width of the gandar that Nik produced.
The reason must probably what you explain : The panjang form have similar shorter forms known as bahari, alang and anak alang.
And I guess he wanted also to show the perfect stria of the "senoh" wood
The hulu jawa demam and the buntu are wery well done.

The meaning of Keris panjang is a long keris. Imho, in its current form, it had been transformed into a keris bahari or anak alang.

The sheath is in the debek form of the northern Malay Peninsular and Southern Thailand. This sheath which is made in Kelantan, leans more towards the kelantanese aesthetics, thick and broad batang (gandar). The buntut style, is in the pantat lipas form.

[Similar example] of a kelantan made sheath, by Nik Rashidin's brother. For comparison, note the wood, sheath style and sheath end-piece.

Originally Posted by Michel

The next photos deal with this strange keris jawa(?). No conclusion to be made on the sarong and sampir as I made it with the wood I had here. I made an error in the angle between the sampir and the gandar. I have been also very simple with the buntut.
The hulu is particular and has been discussed on the forum a few years back. Nobody was able to trace its origin. I found it in Jogjakarta.
Michel

Discuss it again in a new thread. Perhaps we could explore further this time round. (Bigger, clearer pictures would help.)

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by Michel

I made an error in naming the first weapon a Badik. It is a Tumbuk Lada or pepper crusher, at least in Malaysia. I think is a beauty. The shape, the blade, the sampir, every part is perfectly made without overdoing them..

Correct me if I'm wrong, the blade and sheath looks like a typical Sumatran Sewar (siwah, siwar..etc), but the hilt is unusual. Looks more like a sukul jering hilt form of the Pakpak Batak, Sumatra.
[Examples of sewar], (courtesy of VVV).

Originally Posted by Michel

the next two are Kerambit or Lawi Ayam
Origin unknown but bought in Peninsular Malaysia
...

The 2nd item is a beladau (your 3rd and 4th pictures). Found in Sumatra and the Riau Archipelago (includes Peninsular Malaysia). The 3rd item is as described. One of my favorite weapon. Currently, I only have a 'dummy' to practice with. One day, I wish to have the real stuff.

[Michel]

Sorry Alam Shah to be so late to thank for all your remarks but I have been very busy and away so that I did not have the time to answer.
I suggest we close this thread, that started with a kris patrem definition !
I will be coming back with other questions.
Thanks to all who were kind enough to give their points of view.
Michel