KERIS WITH IVORY HILT

[David]

To me it appears closest in dapur to jalak ngore, except of course that it is gonjo iras and that the greneng continue past the gonjo line onto the blade itself whereas i believe the greneng is only on the gonjo itself on jalak ngore.
But i am not sure that these specifically designated dapurs forms are held to outside Javanese spheres.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by David

To me it appears closest in dapur to jalak ngore, except of course that it is gonjo iras and that the greneng continue past the gonjo line onto the blade itself whereas i believe the greneng is only on the gonjo itself on jalak ngore.
But i am not sure that these specifically designated dapurs forms are held to outside Javanese spheres.

Ditto that. For the greneng, it actually looks like a Jalak Ngoceh type. Possibly copying the javanese form, but locally manufactured in Sumatra. Just a thought...

[David]

Thanks Shahrial. I was unaware of the dapur Jalak Ngoceh. I would agree that this blade was made in Sumatra. I believed we have already discussed the Javanese court influence on Sumatran blade form before.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by David

Thanks Shahrial. I was unaware of the dapur Jalak Ngoceh. I would agree that this blade was made in Sumatra. I believed we have already discussed the Javanese court influence on Sumatran blade form before.

Yes, we have.

Carlos,
More details about your piece.
The global shape of the blade is 'ngadhal meteng' (mbangkek), based of blade outline.
The tikel alis is a 'jugag' type, (the deep groove near the base of the blade).
The tip of the blade is a 'ngudhup' point, broad pointed tip.

The dapur leans more towards Jalak Ngoceh, there is no ada-ada (prominent spine) present, (based on available pictures).

Jalak is a songbird, Ngoceh means scattering, therefore Jalak Ngoceh literally means scattering songbird. This is probably based on the greneng area, with a sort of ron da nunut present.
The meaning of Jalak Ngore is, songbird spreading its wings.

See [ keris diagram ] for details.

[carlos]

THANK YOU VERY MUCH!! I´M VERY HAPPY WITH ALL THE INFORMATION! MY ENGLISH ISN´T GOOD AND IS VERY DIFFICULT TO ME WRITE IN THE FORUM, BUT I ALWAYS TRY WRITE SOMETHING AND PUT MY PIECES IN THE FORUM.
THANKS AGAIN
CARLOS

QUOTE=Alam Shah]Yes, we have.

Carlos,
More details about your piece.
The global shape of the blade is 'ngadhal meteng' (mbangkek), based of blade outline.
The tikel alis is a 'jugag' type, (the deep groove near the base of the blade).
The tip of the blade is a 'ngudhup' point, broad pointed tip.

The dapur leans more towards Jalak Ngoceh, there is no ada-ada (prominent spine) present, (based on available pictures).

Jalak is a songbird, Ngoceh means scattering, therefore Jalak Ngoceh literally means scattering songbird. This is probably based on the greneng area, with a sort of ron da nunut present.
The meaning of Jalak Ngore is, songbird spreading its wings.

See [ keris diagram ] for details.[/QUOTE]

[Pangeran Datu]

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

... Ngoceh means scattering, therefore Jalak Ngoceh literally means scattering songbird. This is probably based on the greneng area, with a sort of ron da nunut present.
The meaning of Jalak Ngore is, songbird spreading its wings.

See [ keris diagram ] for details.

G'day,

Just being pedantic I guess, but in your neck of the woods, the word 'ngoceh' must have a different meaning to that in indo. In indo it comes from the word 'oceh', meaning to gossip/chat. Thus 'Jalak Ngoceh' literally means 'Chattering Starling'.

Cheers.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by Pangeran Datu

...Just being pedantic I guess, but in your neck of the woods, the word 'ngoceh' must have a different meaning to that in indo. In indo it comes from the word 'oceh', meaning to gossip/chat. Thus 'Jalak Ngoceh' literally means 'Chattering Starling'...

Maybe you would like to recheck your Kamus Bahasa Indonesia (dictionary) or other references. I would like to know where you based your translation on? Perhaps an etymologist well-versed in Bahasa Indonesia could assist...

For me, I was basing on Bambang Harsrinuksmo's - Ensiklopedi Keris (Pg:200) and cross-referenced it with Haryono Haryoguritno's - Keris Jawa - antara Mistik dan Nalar (Pg:183). Their exact meaning in Bahasa Indonesia (in these two books) are, "Jalak Ngoceh = burung jalak yang berkicau". "Berkicau" translated to English would be "scattering". Unless both of them and myself are mistaken?

[David]

Frankly i am not sure it matters all that much since this dapor bears no actual resemblence to either a "scattering" or a "chattering" starling.
It does seem to me that the names chosen for these dapors is more often somewhat arbritrary.

[Pangeran Datu]

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Maybe you would like to recheck your Kamus Bahasa Indonesia (dictionary) or other references. I would like to know where you based your translation on? Perhaps an etymologist well-versed in Bahasa Indonesia could assist...

For me, I was basing on Bambang Harsrinuksmo's - Ensiklopedi Keris (Pg:200) and cross-referenced it with Haryono Haryoguritno's - Keris Jawa - antara Mistik dan Nalar (Pg:183). Their exact meaning in Bahasa Indonesia (in these two books) are, "Jalak Ngoceh = burung jalak yang berkicau". "Berkicau" translated to English would be "scattering". Unless both of them and myself are mistaken?

Hi Alam Shah,

Yes, I agree with you: ngoceh = berkicau .... when specifically applied to things like birds. Generically, it is the equivalent of the English 'yakking' or 'chin-wagging'. BTW... berkicau = chirp(ing)
I stand by what I said. As to what I based my statement on: I have studied Bahasa in indo and (pardon me for blowing my own trumpet, but since you did ask) can trade grammar and colloquialism with the best of them. So I rarely need a 'kamus'.
BTW... in my understanding Jalak Ngoceh doesn't have a 'tikel alis'. Maybe you, or someone else, can clarify this.

Best regards.

[A. G. Maisey]

Gee whiz Pangeran, I wish I was as clever as you are!

I use a dictionary all the time. I am a native English speaker, virtually all my work involves writing, and I find that I constantly need to refer to one dictionary or another, and then there's my thesaurus. I can't even survive without a dictionary in the language I've been using for the last 60 odd years.

Now, when I move into Indonesian and Javanese---goodness me! I've got so many dictionaries I just don't know where to start.I've never actually studied Indonesian, I've just learnt to use it. Pretty much the same as I learnt to use English.

Yeah, I can carry on a conversation in Indonesian, and I must admit that my Indonesian is pretty much as she is spoke by ordinary people in Solo. No problem with that. I can rip off a letter that will be easily understood. I use a mixture of Indonesian, Javanese and English every single day in conversation within my own family.
But when it comes to writing a formal letter to a government official, I check every second word with a dictionary.

Now lets just have a look at this word "ngoceh".

In Javanese it can actually come from two different words:- koceh, which means to splash about in water, or to splash money around, and can be extended into other meanings as well such as to smear. Colloquially it can be used to refer to babbling speech , where the speech is likened to somebody splashing words around without meaning, as one would splash water.

However, if "ngoceh" is considered to come from "oceh", it has a somewhat different meaning.Applied to birds it means to twitter or chirp, but applied to a person it means to talk too much.

Slight differences, but significant differences:- applied to a person, it can mean to talk nonsense, or it can mean to talk too much, and of course, the meaning depends on the specific context.

However,applied to a bird, it means to twitter, chirp, possibly even to warble , and a bird that talks can be referred to as an "oceh-ocehan".

Of course, in Indonesian, the words "oceh", and "koceh" have virtually the same meaning, the subtle differences that apply when the words are used in Javanese have disappeared when those words have come into Indonesian.In Indonesian, the idea of "empty chatter" applies to both words. One would not use "ngoceh" to refer to a Saturday afternoon yarn with a mate---not unless one wished to denigrate the content of the conversation.

When we look at keris terminology in Jawa, we need to look at the terms and words used from the Javanese perspective, not from the Indonesian language perspective. Thus, "Jalak Ngoceh" must be read as Javanese, not Indonesian.

In Javanese this term "Jalak Ngoceh" can only be understood as "chirping/twittering/warbling jalak". Or even "chattering", but the English word "chattering" is a word better applied to a human context, rather than a bird context, especially when we have words such as "chirping", and "twittering" available.

Regarding dapur names, I guess you need a rather poetic nature, and an other wordly imagination to relate many dapur names to the physical objects to which they refer. The actual features of any dapur can be interpreted differently according to the pakem that is being followed. Personally, I try to avoid as much as possible the use of dapur names, and prefer to describe a blade in terms of the features present.

[Alam Shah]

I stand corrected. Thank you Pangeran Datu and Alan.
I guess, I'm like a "Jalak Ngoceh" myself (talk to much).

[Pangeran Datu]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Gee whiz Pangeran, I wish I was as clever as you are!...

G’day Alan,
ROTFLPIMP ... Now I KNOW you’re having a lend of me!
Unfortunately, I can never lay claim to being anywhere near clever (my genes don’t have ‘clever’ on their database ).
However, I will admit to being fortunate enough to be a ‘survivor’. Any experience/knowledge/skills I may have was born of necessity, not by design.

Back to the word ‘ngoceh’: I am a lazy sort of bloke. I like to use what’s on hand first before scurrying off to look for additional tools.
Had I NOT been satisfied by the the result of my working knowledge, then, no doubt, I WOULD have been forced to study texts/dictionaries to find the origin/meaning of the word in Kawi/Sanskrit. Thankfully, that need didn’t arise in this case.

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

I stand corrected. Thank you Pangeran Datu and Alan.
I guess, I'm like a "Jalak Ngoceh" myself (talk to much). ...

Hi Shahrial,
I wouldn’t be too concerned about it .
You’re doing a great job in this forum: I consider you a major and consistent contributor.
(BTW … did I spell your name correctly? I wondered because I have some friends with a similar name, but they spell theirs with a ‘z’: Shahrizal).

I think it’s good that sometimes we are able to have a bit of a giggle with each other, even have a slight ‘dig’ at each other, without losing one’s sense of humour .
One shouldn’t be afraid to get egg on one’s face either, as long as there’s benefit. Goodness knows how many eggs have landed on my face!

Hi Carlos,
Please accept my apologies for this digression.

Cheers!

[A. G. Maisey]

And a very good day to you too Pangeran.

No, I was not taking the mickey.
I truly believe that anybody who is able to use any language in a clear, concise and consistent manner, without the use of reference books does possess some special ability.From a very young age I recieved various forms of recognition for my skill in the use of the English language, my professional work has always had as a large component of its requirements, the ability to write clear English. As a community service I used to teach English to migrants and to some of our less fortunate adults. I think I can claim that I do handle my native language reasonably well, and that this has been recognised by my peers. However, every day I still need to check dictionaries, a thesaurus, sometimes a grammar text.Sometimes the right word may elude me for days at a time, and with particularly tricky reports or opinions I have been known to get out of bed at 2am to write something , before I lose it.

I regret that I do not have very much talent in the field of foriegn languages. As a child, I never managed to pass a French examination even one time.As an adult learning Indonesian, I gave up on classroom instruction and set myself to learn the language in the same way that a child will learn his native language. As I learnt Indonesian I found that a large component of the dialect I was learning was in fact Javanese, so I extended my attempts at gaining new language skills into attempts at mastering Javanese as well. Although I have managed to become reasonably proficient in Indonesian, I have given up on the possibility of ever being able to hold a conversation in acceptable formal Javanese. It is simply beyond me. I say this after near to 40 years of trying.

Now, when somebody who is not a native speaker of Indonesian comes along and tells me that he "can trade grammar and colloquialism with the best of them", and moreover, seldom needs to refer to a dictionary, I'm sure you will appreciate that I can hardly be anything other than envious. Indeed, perhaps I even hold in awe this person who possesses such skill in the use of a foriegn language. Skill that I myself lack.

Pangeran Datu, you claim that you lack cleverness. I will accept this self judgement, however, you cannot deny that you possess exceptional brilliance in your ability to master a foriegn language.

Regretably, when you addressed the meaning of the word "ngoceh", you did so from the base of your knowledge of the Indonesian language, without realising that this word was not in this context an Indonesian word, but was in fact being used as a Javanese word. Your "working knowledge" in this case may have been sufficient to satisfy you, but unfortunately it was insufficient to allow you to provide an accurate answer.Pangeran, I greatly respect your brilliance in your Indonesian language abilities, and this respect is not lessened by your deficiency in understanding of Javanese language and culture.

In a similar fashion you erred in your understanding, of the word "jalak".
The word "jalak" is a generic word that refers to both mynas and starlings. There are various types of jalak, and along with the various jalak we can include the perling, and the tiong. However, only a couple of birds from this genus are regarded in Jawa as suitable cage birds.The jalak which is most highly prized as a cage bird is the Tiong Emas, or Hill Myna (gracula religiosa). This bird possesses extreme ability in mimicry, and can even learn entire songs, or pieces of poetry.

As I am sure you are aware, one of the enduring cultural traits of the Javanese man is the keeping of birds. Within Javanese culture the keeping of birds is looked upon as an honourable pastime, and something that differentiates the man of refinement from the he who is cut from coarser cloth.

The dapur forms that incorporate the word "jalak" into their names can only be referring to that most highly regarded of the genus, the Tiong Emas. This prince of mimicry, which can repeat the most complex of phrases, seemingly having great command of language, but in fact having only the gift of mimicry, without the attendant ability to understand what it is saying. This is the bird that we must think of when we try to make sense of the relationship between the word "jalak", and the dapur of a keris.

Both the keris and this particular jalak are attributes of the Javanese male, and it is not difficult to see the similarity in form between a prime Tiong Emas when upright and singing, and the pawakan of that group of keris which contains the word "jalak" in their names.The dapur in which this relationship can most easily be observed is the dapur of Jalak Buda.

Thus, the word "jalak" in the name "jalak ngoceh" should be translated as "myna". Mynas and starlings belong to the same genus, but a myna is most definitely not a starling.

Shahrial, I wouldn't worry too much about "standing corrected", were I you. Javanese is not your native language,nor is English, Harsrinuksmo gave only a straight translation of ngoceh, and you made a typo. Speaking for myself, I read your "scattering" as "chattering" from the time of your first post of this word, and I felt that in the circumstances, this was near enough. The only reason I have pursued this matter is because it became apparent that a greater degree of accuracy was being demanded, and I have tried to satisfy this demand.