Kampilan with unusual Thalassic guard form

David · 13th February 2007, 02:39 PM

As for the guard Bill, i would say perhaps "less common" is the term i would use. I have seen far too many kampilan on eBay with this style guard to consider it "unusual", though yours is i much nicer example than most of the ones i've seen.

Bill M · 13th February 2007, 02:54 PM

Thanks, guys. I seem to have gotten into a description situation. I have been quoting a description of this kampilan from Cato's "Moro Swords." These are his words and I should be referencing him.

Please see pages 49 and 54 of "Moro Swords."

"34. A curved kampilan guard with an unusual thalassic form."

When I search for "thalassic" I see the "Free Onine Dictionary" saying:

Adj. 1. thalassic - relating to the seas, especially smaller or inland seas;- Scientific American

Thinking in this context, I assume the guard looks a bit like a boat. But it could have other meanings.

I apologise for not quoting my sources and will be sure to quote them in the future.

---- Bill

VANDOO · 13th February 2007, 09:17 PM

A NICE LOOKING KAMPILIAN

WHEN I FIRST STARTED COLLECTING IN THE 1960'S I NEVER SAW A KAMPILIAN WOOD GAURD THAT WAS DIFFERENT ON THE ENDS. KAMPILIANS WERE NOT SEEN OFTEN AT GUN SHOWS OR OTHER PLACES DURING THOSE TIMES BUT KRIS AND BARONG AND TAALIBON/GUNONG WERE FAIRLY COMMON. THERE WERE VARIATIONS IN THE DESIGN OF THE CROSSGAURDS BUT THE ENDS WERE ALWAYS THE SAME ON BOTH SIDES. I HAD NOT SEEN AN EXAMPLE OF THE FORM LIKE YOURS UNTILL EBAY CAME INTO BEING. SO PERHAPS THEY ARE A FORM FROM SOME AREA OR REGION NOT COMMONLY VISITED BY OUTSIDERS OR MORE LIKELY A MORE RECENT STYLE FORM. I HAVE NOT HANDLED A LOT OF EXAMPLES OF THESE SO CAN'T JUDGE THEIR AGE, WHAT IS YOUR OPINION LOOKING AT YOUR EXAMPLE PRE WW2 OR AFTER WW2?

I THINK KAMPILIAN, KRIS, PANABAS AND BARONG PRODUCTION HAS NEVER STOPPED ENTIRELY AND HAVE SEEN PLENTY OF EXAMPLES THAT HAVE BEEN ANTIQUED TO LOOK OLD ,SOME VERY WELL MADE AND SOME OF LESSER WORKMANSHIP. SOMETIMES THE BLADE IS AN OLDER ONE WITH NEWER FITTINGS WHICH IS TO BE EXPECTED BUT I SEE NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT AS LONG AS THE WORKMANSHIP IS GOOD QUALITY AND TRADITIONAL.

Tim Simmons · 13th February 2007, 09:31 PM

Very helpful post Barry, it is the right name I hope. Your post is clearly floral in decoration. The one Bill post is now clearly waves. Why is there such a distinction in design? I know little of this area except the general terms of Dayak and Sea Dayak which I suspect are rather collector/western terms even if there are communities that live by and from the sea.

VANDOO · 13th February 2007, 10:21 PM

KAMPILIAN ARE MOSTLY ASSOCIATED WITH THE MORO BUT I AM SURE THERE WERE SIMULAR SWORDS CARRIED BY OTHER GROUPS THRUOUT THE REGION. WHERE AND WHEN THEY ORIGINATED AND WHAT THE EARLY FORMS WERE LIKE AND WHICH TRIBES TRADITIONALY USED THEM IS UNKNOWN TO ME. I SUSPECT THEY EVOLVED FROM A SHORTER SWORD WITH A SIMULAR FORM PERHAPS LIKE THE TIBOLI OR BAGABO SWORDS OR DAYAK MANDAU.

THEY WERE A TRUE WAR SWORD AND NOT A TOOL OR JUST CARRIED AROUND EVERYDAY. THEY WERE ALSO CARRIED AT SPECIAL CEREMONYS OR COURT GATHERINGS AND PERHAPS THE WEAPON OF CHOICE FOR BODYGAURDS OF HIGH RANKING PEOPLE. I PERSONALLY ASSOCIATE THEM MOSTLY WITH COASTAL SEA FARING TRIBES OR THOSE LIVING ALONG THE RIVERS WITH ACCESS TO THE SEA. THE COMMON STYLIZED CROCODILE HEAD POMMELS WOULD ALSO POINT TO SEAFARING COMUNITYS VERSUS THOSE LIVING IN THE HIGHLANDS. THE FLORAL DECORATION IS QUITE COMMON PERHAPS FROM ISLAMIC INFLUENCES OR PERHAPS NOT

NOT KNOWING THE FIGHTING STYLES USED IT LEADS ME TO WONDER IF THEY WERE USED PRIMARLY ON LAND OR IF THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN EFFECTIVE FOR BATTLES ON BOARD SHIPS?

Tim Simmons · 13th February 2007, 10:31 PM

I think there has been a tendency to make a hard border between communities in this area, that in earlier times did not fit modern nation state ideas. Rather like vast areas of Africa, called one thing by us and another by them so to speak.

Spunjer · 14th February 2007, 03:14 PM

.

<<<==== is that unusual?

ariel · 14th February 2007, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

Thanks, guys. I seem to have gotten into a description situation. I have been quoting a description of this kampilan from Cato's "Moro Swords." These are his words and I should be referencing him.

Please see pages 49 and 54 of "Moro Swords."

"34. A curved kampilan guard with an unusual thalassic form."

When I search for "thalassic" I see the "Free Onine Dictionary" saying:

Adj. 1. thalassic - relating to the seas, especially smaller or inland seas;- Scientific American

Thinking in this context, I assume the guard looks a bit like a boat. But it could have other meanings.

I apologise for not quoting my sources and will be sure to quote them in the future.

---- Bill

As the old British academic doggerel goes:
"Thalassa or Thalatta?
The former or the latter?"

And, of course, the shout of relieved Xenophonic Greeks " Thalassa!" ( Or was it Thalatta, anyway?)

Tim Simmons · 15th February 2007, 06:39 PM

You say tomatoe, I say tomato

ariel · 15th February 2007, 10:21 PM

And, as per Dan Quaile " You say potato, and I say potatoe"

Andrew · 15th February 2007, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

And, as per Dan Quaile " You say potato, and I say potatoe"

lol. That's exactly what I was thinking.

Bill M · 15th February 2007, 11:01 PM

SO this UK guy comes to the USA. He asks an American farmer, What do you do with all your extra produce?"

The farmer replied, "We eat all we can and what we can't eat, we can."

The UK guy thought this was very funny and he returned home he told about the Ameican farmer in the Colonies, "They eat all they can and what they can't eat, they tin!"

13th February 2007, 09:17 PM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A NICE LOOKING KAMPILIAN WHEN I FIRST STARTED COLLECTING IN THE 1960'S I NEVER SAW A KAMPILIAN WOOD GAURD THAT WAS DIFFERENT ON THE ENDS. KAMPILIANS WERE NOT SEEN OFTEN AT GUN SHOWS OR OTHER PLACES DURING THOSE TIMES BUT KRIS AND BARONG AND TAALIBON/GUNONG WERE FAIRLY COMMON. THERE WERE VARIATIONS IN THE DESIGN OF THE CROSSGAURDS BUT THE ENDS WERE ALWAYS THE SAME ON BOTH SIDES. I HAD NOT SEEN AN EXAMPLE OF THE FORM LIKE YOURS UNTILL EBAY CAME INTO BEING. SO PERHAPS THEY ARE A FORM FROM SOME AREA OR REGION NOT COMMONLY VISITED BY OUTSIDERS OR MORE LIKELY A MORE RECENT STYLE FORM. I HAVE NOT HANDLED A LOT OF EXAMPLES OF THESE SO CAN'T JUDGE THEIR AGE, WHAT IS YOUR OPINION LOOKING AT YOUR EXAMPLE PRE WW2 OR AFTER WW2? I THINK KAMPILIAN, KRIS, PANABAS AND BARONG PRODUCTION HAS NEVER STOPPED ENTIRELY AND HAVE SEEN PLENTY OF EXAMPLES THAT HAVE BEEN ANTIQUED TO LOOK OLD ,SOME VERY WELL MADE AND SOME OF LESSER WORKMANSHIP. SOMETIMES THE BLADE IS AN OLDER ONE WITH NEWER FITTINGS WHICH IS TO BE EXPECTED BUT I SEE NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT AS LONG AS THE WORKMANSHIP IS GOOD QUALITY AND TRADITIONAL. Attached Images Last edited by VANDOO; 13th February 2007 at 09:29 PM.

13th February 2007, 02:39 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	As for the guard Bill, i would say perhaps "less common" is the term i would use. I have seen far too many kampilan on eBay with this style guard to consider it "unusual", though yours is i much nicer example than most of the ones i've seen.

13th February 2007, 02:54 PM	#2
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Thanks, guys. I seem to have gotten into a description situation. I have been quoting a description of this kampilan from Cato's "Moro Swords." These are his words and I should be referencing him. Please see pages 49 and 54 of "Moro Swords." "34. A curved kampilan guard with an unusual thalassic form." When I search for "thalassic" I see the "Free Onine Dictionary" saying: Adj. 1. thalassic - relating to the seas, especially smaller or inland seas;- Scientific American Thinking in this context, I assume the guard looks a bit like a boat. But it could have other meanings. I apologise for not quoting my sources and will be sure to quote them in the future. ---- Bill

13th February 2007, 09:31 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Very helpful post Barry, it is the right name I hope. Your post is clearly floral in decoration. The one Bill post is now clearly waves. Why is there such a distinction in design? I know little of this area except the general terms of Dayak and Sea Dayak which I suspect are rather collector/western terms even if there are communities that live by and from the sea.

13th February 2007, 10:21 PM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	KAMPILIAN ARE MOSTLY ASSOCIATED WITH THE MORO BUT I AM SURE THERE WERE SIMULAR SWORDS CARRIED BY OTHER GROUPS THRUOUT THE REGION. WHERE AND WHEN THEY ORIGINATED AND WHAT THE EARLY FORMS WERE LIKE AND WHICH TRIBES TRADITIONALY USED THEM IS UNKNOWN TO ME. I SUSPECT THEY EVOLVED FROM A SHORTER SWORD WITH A SIMULAR FORM PERHAPS LIKE THE TIBOLI OR BAGABO SWORDS OR DAYAK MANDAU. THEY WERE A TRUE WAR SWORD AND NOT A TOOL OR JUST CARRIED AROUND EVERYDAY. THEY WERE ALSO CARRIED AT SPECIAL CEREMONYS OR COURT GATHERINGS AND PERHAPS THE WEAPON OF CHOICE FOR BODYGAURDS OF HIGH RANKING PEOPLE. I PERSONALLY ASSOCIATE THEM MOSTLY WITH COASTAL SEA FARING TRIBES OR THOSE LIVING ALONG THE RIVERS WITH ACCESS TO THE SEA. THE COMMON STYLIZED CROCODILE HEAD POMMELS WOULD ALSO POINT TO SEAFARING COMUNITYS VERSUS THOSE LIVING IN THE HIGHLANDS. THE FLORAL DECORATION IS QUITE COMMON PERHAPS FROM ISLAMIC INFLUENCES OR PERHAPS NOT NOT KNOWING THE FIGHTING STYLES USED IT LEADS ME TO WONDER IF THEY WERE USED PRIMARLY ON LAND OR IF THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN EFFECTIVE FOR BATTLES ON BOARD SHIPS?

13th February 2007, 10:31 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I think there has been a tendency to make a hard border between communities in this area, that in earlier times did not fit modern nation state ideas. Rather like vast areas of Africa, called one thing by us and another by them so to speak.

14th February 2007, 03:14 PM	#7
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	. <<<==== is that unusual?

15th February 2007, 06:39 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	You say tomatoe, I say tomato

15th February 2007, 10:21 PM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	And, as per Dan Quaile " You say potato, and I say potatoe"

15th February 2007, 11:01 PM	#12
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	SO this UK guy comes to the USA. He asks an American farmer, What do you do with all your extra produce?" The farmer replied, "We eat all we can and what we can't eat, we can." The UK guy thought this was very funny and he returned home he told about the Ameican farmer in the Colonies, "They eat all they can and what they can't eat, they tin!"