Maasai Seme

Emanuel · 11th February 2007, 11:44 PM

Hullo!
Here's my newest treasure...my last one (the afar jile) didn't turn out too well...so this lifted my spirits. A maasai seme, forged and 68 cm long, so a good sword size. As I undertand it from past discussions, this particular type is not all that old, but at least pre-1950s...is this correct?
For comparison I post another seme cut from a Martindale machete (thanks Tim, I still really like it

)
I'd very much appreciate comments.
Emanuel

katana · 12th February 2007, 01:49 PM

Hi Emanuel,
I followed this and forgot to bid

.....but I am glad you got it

. I believe the diamond section blade would probably date this early to mid 20c. The hand forged blades with the median ridge AFAIK tend to be 19c to early 20c... and are increasingly harder to find. I think yours is a very nice Same....and at a very good price.....congrats

Emanuel · 12th February 2007, 06:06 PM

Thanks David,
I'm glad you didn't bid

From the old threads I understand this may be a later type of the old forged seme, so early 20th sounds right. It's close to 27" long so quite large, can't wait to receive it and swing it around. What I like about these weapons, and other African ones as well, is that they show th gradual transition from speartip to sword...quite fascinating.
I'll port more pics when I get it.
Best,
Emanuel

katana · 12th February 2007, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manolo

Thanks David,
I'm glad you didn't bid

.
Best,
Emanuel

I'M NOT......

Emanuel, I'm not certain...but I think the so called 'Lion spear' with the 'Same' type head were a late 19c/ early 20c 'addition'. I have always had the impression that the 'Same' pre-dated this type of spear.

Then again, I could be wrong ........so nothing new there then

Emanuel · 13th February 2007, 01:13 AM

Could be, David...I'll read up on it...can't wait to get it

asomotif · 16th February 2007, 02:05 PM

Dear all,

What do you think. Is this sword masai ?
I sold it some 2 years ago as masai although I was not sure at all as info was hard to find here.

Thanks and best regards,
Willem

Emanuel · 24th February 2007, 11:41 PM

Hello Willem,
Yours does look like a maasai seme...the handle is interesting though...have a look here : http://anthro.amnh.org/anthro.html in the Collections Database, then in the "African Ethnographic Collection" and search for maasai.

I just received mine, but the sword is really wedged in tightly in the scabbard. Are there any ways to loosen a scabbard? Would applying abundent oil do it?

Emanuel

FenrisWolf · 25th February 2007, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Dear all,

What do you think. Is this sword masai ?
I sold it some 2 years ago as masai although I was not sure at all as info was hard to find here.

Thanks and best regards,
Willem

What the heck is that monster behind the Seme? It looks like something out of one of those absurd Japanese Anime cartoons, where the warrior is swinging a six-foot slab of steel with one hand!

Lew · 25th February 2007, 12:16 AM

Hi Willem

That is an older Massai war sword they have longer blades. Here are two from my collection. Btw your shield looks be from the Turkana tribe.

Lew

RomaRana · 26th February 2007, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Hi Willem

That is an older Massai war sword they have longer blades. Here are two from my collection. Btw your shield looks be from the Turkana tribe.

Lew

Louie I believe one of your swords is actually Watuta. I have been involved in a serious study of this east African sword type for about two years now.

I uncovered several prints from the 1800's illustrating several seemingly similar sword types that most would identify as a "seme." But in fact range in a wide geo-cultural area.

The one on the lower left has rings built into which is a characteristic of the watuta tribe, a branch of the Nagoni. I would also need to see it sheathed to confirm this. Watuta swords frequently (not always) exhibit a neck protrusion of 1-2 inches that are not covered by the sheath. Furthermore, sheath color confirms this fact.

East african swords need to be analyzed in terms of forging techniques such as tip shape, cross section (a very complicated subject), hilt style, sheath style, sheath color, sheath and belt motif.

These swords were made and used among too many tribal groups to list.

some are:
Maasai- Each maasai group has a different style of sword. There are at least 15 Maasai groups. Some Maasai groups actually work in blacksmithing after they were forced to adopt agriculture after the 2nd and 3rd Iloikop wars and the rinderpest epidemic of the 1890's.

Kikuyu
Chagga
Luo
Watuta
Ngoni
Sambaru

RomaRana · 26th February 2007, 02:16 AM

Manolo,

The seme you posted dates at least to 1935. This is because the development of this type of sword was probably related to the spear and weapons ordinance introduced by the British to quell the "warrior" culture of many tribal groups.

The ban lasted from 1935-1955 and did a great deal of damage to the blacksmithing culture in the region as evidenced by a drop in quality of the blades from the older type.

Jim McDougall · 26th February 2007, 05:56 AM

Outstanding information RomaRama!!!!

It is great to have such detailed data on these little discussed swords, which are most intriguing. Is there special significance to the red coloring on the scabbards?
Best regards,
Jim

RomaRana · 26th February 2007, 07:21 AM

The red scabbards are of great significance to the Maasai. The coming of the Maasai into East Africa during the Nilotic Diaspora is recorded and dated in Kikuyu oral tradition around 1750 to 1775.

This first contact and age was deemed by Routledge as the "Red Ochre Fad." Before this period there is no mention of red ochre in Kikuyu oral history, therefore the Maasai probably brought red ochre with them to the area.

This historical evidence shows that the Maasai used red as one of their tribal signifiers as far back as the 1700's. Many consider sheath color as a primary means of dating East African swords (Brown sheaths are older red newer) but the evidence suggests otherwise.

Furthermore, I have in my possession a color page printed by the Bibliogr. Institut in Lepzig in 1880. Using my antique manuscript page I noticed that two swords most would identify as Maasai were depicted side by side. They were dyed in different colors, one in red identified as Maasai and the other in brown identified as Watuta. This revelation blew the color age theory out of the water as both red and brown scabbards were historically illustrated simultaneously as of 1880.

But Maasai tribal group iconography further confuses this matter. The intensity of ochre and its symbolism is of great importance to the Maasai. Some sections prefer a reddish brown while others prefer a sanguine blood red. For example the Kisongo Maasai dislike bright reds because of its similarity to blood. This variation is easy to see in the older long sword type sheaths.

Where I am stumped is why so many newer swords exhibit an almost universal (not completely) blood red dye. I have my theories but they cannot be backed up by evidence as of yet.

Jim McDougall · 1st March 2007, 02:07 AM

Hi RomaRana,
Thank you very much for the most interesting data on the use of red coloring on these scabbards. I had previously wondered about the significance of red used on various weapons in various cultures, and earlier attempts at discussing produced little information, so I very much appreciate the detail you have added here. It seems material I have seen does not present much detail on this aspect of the Maasai weapons, and I look forward to hearing more on your theory.
Very best regards,
Jim

Emanuel · 1st March 2007, 02:32 AM

RomaRana,
Many thanks for the extensive info. While I had understood that the long, slender ribbed blades where of an older, forged type, I had the impression that fully red hide indicated newer work than the brown hides. Good to hear that both were used at earlier dates.

I wonder about the current Maasai culture. Do they still have any conceivable need for the long fighting blades? The machete types are purely tools and for cutting vegetation I imagine, while spears are for keeping away any dangerous animals, no?

Regards,
Emanuel

11th February 2007, 11:44 PM	#1
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Maasai Seme Hullo! Here's my newest treasure...my last one (the afar jile) didn't turn out too well...so this lifted my spirits. A maasai seme, forged and 68 cm long, so a good sword size. As I undertand it from past discussions, this particular type is not all that old, but at least pre-1950s...is this correct? For comparison I post another seme cut from a Martindale machete (thanks Tim, I still really like it ) I'd very much appreciate comments. Emanuel Attached Images

16th February 2007, 02:05 PM	#6
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	Dear all, What do you think. Is this sword masai ? I sold it some 2 years ago as masai although I was not sure at all as info was hard to find here. Thanks and best regards, Willem Attached Images

25th February 2007, 12:16 AM	#9
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Hi Willem That is an older Massai war sword they have longer blades. Here are two from my collection. Btw your shield looks be from the Turkana tribe. Lew Attached Images

12th February 2007, 01:49 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Emanuel, I followed this and forgot to bid .....but I am glad you got it . I believe the diamond section blade would probably date this early to mid 20c. The hand forged blades with the median ridge AFAIK tend to be 19c to early 20c... and are increasingly harder to find. I think yours is a very nice Same....and at a very good price.....congrats

12th February 2007, 06:06 PM	#3
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Thanks David, I'm glad you didn't bid From the old threads I understand this may be a later type of the old forged seme, so early 20th sounds right. It's close to 27" long so quite large, can't wait to receive it and swing it around. What I like about these weapons, and other African ones as well, is that they show th gradual transition from speartip to sword...quite fascinating. I'll port more pics when I get it. Best, Emanuel

13th February 2007, 01:13 AM	#5
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Could be, David...I'll read up on it...can't wait to get it

24th February 2007, 11:41 PM	#7
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello Willem, Yours does look like a maasai seme...the handle is interesting though...have a look here : http://anthro.amnh.org/anthro.html in the Collections Database, then in the "African Ethnographic Collection" and search for maasai. I just received mine, but the sword is really wedged in tightly in the scabbard. Are there any ways to loosen a scabbard? Would applying abundent oil do it? Emanuel

26th February 2007, 02:16 AM	#11
RomaRana Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 58	Manolo, The seme you posted dates at least to 1935. This is because the development of this type of sword was probably related to the spear and weapons ordinance introduced by the British to quell the "warrior" culture of many tribal groups. The ban lasted from 1935-1955 and did a great deal of damage to the blacksmithing culture in the region as evidenced by a drop in quality of the blades from the older type.

26th February 2007, 05:56 AM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Outstanding information RomaRama!!!! It is great to have such detailed data on these little discussed swords, which are most intriguing. Is there special significance to the red coloring on the scabbards? Best regards, Jim

26th February 2007, 07:21 AM	#13
RomaRana Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 58	The red scabbards are of great significance to the Maasai. The coming of the Maasai into East Africa during the Nilotic Diaspora is recorded and dated in Kikuyu oral tradition around 1750 to 1775. This first contact and age was deemed by Routledge as the "Red Ochre Fad." Before this period there is no mention of red ochre in Kikuyu oral history, therefore the Maasai probably brought red ochre with them to the area. This historical evidence shows that the Maasai used red as one of their tribal signifiers as far back as the 1700's. Many consider sheath color as a primary means of dating East African swords (Brown sheaths are older red newer) but the evidence suggests otherwise. Furthermore, I have in my possession a color page printed by the Bibliogr. Institut in Lepzig in 1880. Using my antique manuscript page I noticed that two swords most would identify as Maasai were depicted side by side. They were dyed in different colors, one in red identified as Maasai and the other in brown identified as Watuta. This revelation blew the color age theory out of the water as both red and brown scabbards were historically illustrated simultaneously as of 1880. But Maasai tribal group iconography further confuses this matter. The intensity of ochre and its symbolism is of great importance to the Maasai. Some sections prefer a reddish brown while others prefer a sanguine blood red. For example the Kisongo Maasai dislike bright reds because of its similarity to blood. This variation is easy to see in the older long sword type sheaths. Where I am stumped is why so many newer swords exhibit an almost universal (not completely) blood red dye. I have my theories but they cannot be backed up by evidence as of yet.

1st March 2007, 02:07 AM	#14
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Hi RomaRana, Thank you very much for the most interesting data on the use of red coloring on these scabbards. I had previously wondered about the significance of red used on various weapons in various cultures, and earlier attempts at discussing produced little information, so I very much appreciate the detail you have added here. It seems material I have seen does not present much detail on this aspect of the Maasai weapons, and I look forward to hearing more on your theory. Very best regards, Jim

1st March 2007, 02:32 AM	#15
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	RomaRana, Many thanks for the extensive info. While I had understood that the long, slender ribbed blades where of an older, forged type, I had the impression that fully red hide indicated newer work than the brown hides. Good to hear that both were used at earlier dates. I wonder about the current Maasai culture. Do they still have any conceivable need for the long fighting blades? The machete types are purely tools and for cutting vegetation I imagine, while spears are for keeping away any dangerous animals, no? Regards, Emanuel