Dahb Thai, Japanese swords and hybrids

[PUFF]

http://www.konrakmeed.com/webboard/u...?showtopic=423

We just had another seminar on last weekend. Here are some pics from the meeting. The meeting was held in the Japanese school of language and culture in Bangkok.

Dahb from Lanna area (northern Thailand)



... from Utaradit, Pisanulok area (sitting btween northern-central area of Thailand)


... from Aythaya city, 17-18th cent.



... Ratanakosin period (19-20th cent), noted that the lowest one 's executioner's (early 20th, http://www.gun.in.th/webboard/index.php?topic=9328.30)


... from southern area of Thailand

[PUFF]

Then, the hybrids, Siamese-made weapons which are influenced by japanese ones.




And some Japanese examples




Many thanks in advance to Pol. Lt. Wabma for his photos. Mr. Bancha for the organizing. Questions and comments are welcome.

[Mark]

Great stuff, Puff! (By the way, one photo in the last message didn't post properly). The photos raise a couple questions for me.

First, of in the ones from Utaradit, Pisanulok area, the top two look like top-most of the Ratanakosin-era dahb. Is this because they are all both from Utaradit and the Ratanakosin era, or is there some feature distinguishing the two?

Second, in the photo of the Utaradit dahb, what distinguishes the lowest one as an exceutioner's sword? Is it the heaviness of the blade, the hua, or the handle? Maybe something else? It is difficult to make out anything of the exceutioner's sword in the photos of the linked thread (beware, people, they are very graphic).

Finally, in the last photo of dahb from southern Thailand, the first and third I had thought were a Lanna (i.e., northern) style, based on the pommel and ferrule (area next to the blade). Similar swords are shown in Punjabhan, Silverware in Thailand (1991), as I recall from the National Museum collection, and are identified as being from Lanna. There was no discussion in Punjabhan regarding the distinguishing features, so my identification of this pommel and ferrule style with Lanna is just based on comparing the various photos and noting those features that were found consistently in the dahb attributed to Lanna, but not in other dahb.

These dabh meeting you have been holding have been generating some very interesting and exciting new (for me) information. If I can get to Thailand at the right time, I would love to attend one.

[DhaDha]

Can't thank you enough...

[PUFF]

Hi, Mark, all pics looks ok for me. Please let me know which one's not working and I will repost it.

Your first question 's about similarity between Dahb Utaradit and one from early Rattanakosin era. Geographically, Utaradit and Pisanulok (BLUE) are major cities southern of Lanna (GREEN). The cities were self-govern under Siamese capitol (RED) 's power in both Ayuthaya and Rattanakosin periods. The sword labeled as Dahb from Rattanakosin era (the top one) shared blade similarity with ones from late Ayuthaya era. It 's hypothesized that they have same craftsmanship (same smith guild or linage). Although ones from southern area of Lanna (Utaradit-Pisanulok) have similar art (decoration, style, tip style) but they are different in terms of profile and balance. Its blade profile 's somewhat influenced by Lanna 's blade, narrow "waist", highly-taper-spine. And we agree to put such Dahb in another catagory than Lanna, Ayuthaya or Rattanakosin, even the blades are from late Ayuthaya-early Rattanakosin era.

[PUFF]

The executioner 's Dahb 's the one labeled as Rattanakosin period's.


It 's single-handed Dahb with CG toward the tip (aka, COP moved to about 1/3 from the tip instead of 1-2 inches as most of Dahbs in the same period). It 's overall weight 's just a little heavier than regular ones. The dahb 's obtained from executioner 's family and there are references that the Dahb did the job.





I rated the following pics as violence ones, please click the links to view them.
http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/3006/5fa1.jpg
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r173/chomjan/04a.jpg

[PUFF]

Regarding to the southern Dahbs, they shared a similar fate as Dahbs from southern area of Lanna. Since Ayuthaya era, the region was under Siamese power for some period, they were self-rule for some period and they were fully governed by Siamese governer for some period. So, their craftsmanship was mixed up with Siamese's. Althoug the example at top of the rack do has Siamese profile with Lanna style hilt. But its detail 's a lot different from typical Lanna Dhabs. The hilt 's cast of brass with persian-style detail. And we do have another identical Dahb with a good reference that it was belong to a southern noble family.
Mark, you are very good in Dha ID. Even from a poor taken pic, you can ID it right. The third one also very Lanna'ish to me. The hilt was carved of wood in oval profile (instead of round profile as typical ones), very similar pattern to the silver one from Nan province (in Lanna area). Blade profile, decorative and scabbard remind me a Lanna blade. But the onwer do has good reference that the blade 's obtained from southern part of Thailand. And it was there for some good time. It 's possible that the blade was made to order, or brought to the area by "northern" folk.

[Andrew]

Once again, many thanks for sharing this information with us, Puff.

[Tim Simmons]

Very interesting and a little alarming. These pictures bring me back to this sword and why it was dismissed as no more than a snake killer . Yes it is clearly latter in the 20th century but still a real weapon. I show it next to one that will meet with your approval. The more modern one is equally well tempered and although heavier can flex but not like the old one.

[Mark]

Thank you again for even more precious insight. I need to study these photos carefully, as I believe I have been mis-identifying some of my dahb.

I do see all the photos now. It must have been some small problem with my internet connection.

I came across an interesting piece of information while back about dha/dahb blades that "travel" far from where they were made, which may explain the northern style blade on a southern dahb. Sylvia Fraser-Lu, in Burmese Crafts, Past & Present (1994) (ISBN 0-19-588608-9) says:

In the early twentieth century, Mong-Kung and Kehsi in the Southern Shan States produced blades which enjoyed a wide reputation throughout Burma. Many were exported to Thailand under the trade name of 'ham-ngai,' after the traders who bought the blades wholesale and fitted them with handles." P. 148

This refers to early 20th century blade trade, but I see no reason why it would not have been going on earlier. As you know, the "Shan" of Burma are in fact Tai, the "Shan States" of Burma being right next to Lanna. At many times they were in fact unified in whole or in part.

Another possible explanation could be found in the practice of deporting large groups of people, particularly skilled craftsmen, from conquered areas back to the conquerer's heart-land. In this case, the areas of Lanna and the adjacent Shan States changed hands several times between the Burmese and the Thai over the centuries, and it is not hard to believe that swordsmiths from Lanna (or the Shan States of Burma), were deported to the southern parts of the country.

How much of the ancient Thai swordmaking tradition (in the sense of history) is preserved? Are there still families of swordsmiths in these areas with a family history or tradition that would explain the movement and development of styles? I know such families still work in Aranyik - are there similar, living, swordmaking centers in for example Pisanulok or Lanna?

[PUFF]

Lanna Dahbs, in their scabbards.


Smiths migration 's, indeed, interesting. In previous meeting ago, we learned that there are steel tools (and weapons) making around Ayuthaya city center. During the 2nd sack of Ayuthaya, many smiths were ported to Burmese 's city. And some were killed. In the early Rattanakosin, during king Rama 2nd era, there were immigration of Lao 's smiths (gold, silver and steel). They settled down in the Ayuthaya area (which was an old city by then ). In the early of 20th cent., their steel products were dominant in the market as Aranyik 's product. In fact, Aranyik 's the name of a market/hub village where these people sold their products, the manufactoring place is PaiNong village . Some were sold in Bangkok many were exported as far as Lao and Vietnam (some of us found them during search for Lao or Vietnam 's local sword). And, by now, Aranyik 's Lao sword design turned to be recognized as Dahb Thai.

Similar thing happened in Burman side, Ayuthaya (Yodia, in Burmese term) smiths made long hilt Dha which, today, can be found around Mandalay.

Lanna and southern Lanna smiths has a different story. As far as I know, Chiang Mai do not has its own sword making community (sounds odd, I need to do more research in this are). Many Dha, Dahb were imported from nearby cities, used to be Tai Shan cities (on Burman side) and LamPang (~100 miles south of ChiangMai). Not long ago, just after WWII, LamPang guilds got a huge order of Dahb Thai from Bangkok, which actually is Aranyik (Lao) style. Today, they still making both traditional Lanna and Aranyik 's Dahb Thai sword. There 's another sword making community in Utaradit, near an infamouse Nam-Pi iron ore deposite. But I think they got "infected" by Aranyik style by now.

Indeed, there were some smiths in the rural area which were not captured during the Ayuthaya 's 2nd sack. But they do not make weapons as a primary job. And, since king Rama 3rd, there were immigration of the Chinese. They come with chinese technique and go into the business. Scattered Siamese smiths gave up their business and ,so far, I could not find a single Siamese sword maker in my area.

[RhysMichael]

A great discussion and I am learning a great deal as always from reading these. I would love to actually come to one of the lectures oneday. Thank you for sharing

Can you tell me more about this sword



It is in with dha but if not for that I would have called it a parang with a naga hilt. I had not seen one with a guard before but otherwise it looks Indonesian not Thai to me.

And this one seems to resemble hairpin folding seen on swords from parts of China and Tibet

[PUFF]

I do agree with you that the piece shouldn't be classified as Dahb. But it 's not unique to the island part. Parang style weapons are also exist in mainland Malaya peninsular too. This one is a good example



The forge-weld blade 's made in wakisashi profile (3rd blade from top of this rack). It 's made with keris/badik technique. There is a document that in the 19th cent., similar blades were made and the Siamese king sent "keris-patterned Japanese sword" out as a diplomatic item.

[RhysMichael]

Originally Posted by PUFF

I do agree with you that the piece shouldn't be classified as Dahb. But it 's not unique to the island part. Parang style weapons are also exist in mainland Malaya peninsular too. This one is a good example


The forge-weld blade 's made in wakisashi profile (3rd blade from top of this rack). It 's made with keris/badik technique. There is a document that in the 19th cent., similar blades were made and the Siamese king sent "keris-patterned Japanese sword" out as a diplomatic item.

I knew there were Thai keris so it makes sense there are Thai parang type weapons I just never had seen or even considered it myself. Do you know of many other thai swords with the naga style hilt ?

As to the forge welding, I love the many varied styles of forge welding. I would like to see more of the "keris patterned" Thai made swords and see if they have more of a pamor look or more of the hairpin folding look of these.

Again Thanks

[Mark]

I'll try and get a photo of the pattern-welded Thai "katana" at the Smithsonian. Its a beautiful sword.

[RhysMichael]

Originally Posted by Mark

I'll try and get a photo of the pattern-welded Thai "katana" at the Smithsonian. Its a beautiful sword.

If you have time that would be great, thanks

[wilked aka Khun Deng]

Puff you are treasure all by yourself and I'm kicking myself for not contacting you as I was in Bangkok for the last three weeks and would have given much to have attended that seminar. You are confirming and adding to much of what I have already learned. (especially liked the "Don't Touch" sign in the photos
Thanks

Rhys, the parang was not an unusual weapon to central Thailand nor was the keris. They were in use by officers in the royal court, at least if information and the examples at the arms room of the Royal palace is correct.

Dan

[PUFF]

Originally Posted by wilked aka Khun Deng

Puff you are treasure all by yourself and I'm kicking myself for not contacting you as I was in Bangkok for the last three weeks and would have given much to have attended that seminar. You are confirming and adding to much of what I have already learned. (especially liked the "Don't Touch" sign in the photos
Thanks

Rhys, the parang was not an unusual weapon to central Thailand nor was the keris. They were in use by officers in the royal court, at least if information and the examples at the arms room of the Royal palace is correct.

Dan

And if you didn't go for the movie, please make sure that you kick yourself twice.

[wilked aka Khun Deng]

Yes I am kicking myself over that also, but I did get a King Naresuan polo shirt and hat at 7-11 .

Seriously, I've been out of touch with the forum for well over a year because of work (has it really been that long?) and the few posts I've managed to catch up on have shown me that you are the native resource that the rest of us Dha Guys have been looking for.

Andrew I'll need Puff's help with the translation it labels the swords from top to bottom. All start with Pra- sang- daab which literally translates as royal object - sword, it's the last syllable that is unfamiliar to me.

REALLY glad to be back.

Dang

[Mark]

As it turns out, the entire Smithsonian Museum of American History is closed for renovations until the summer of '08. Hard to believe that they would close the whole thing for that long.

Here is a passage about Thais keris that we have quoted a few times, from the 17th century travel account of de la Loubere, "A New Historical Relations of the Kingdon of Siam" (1693). He defines a Thai word, "krid" as "a dagger which the king give to the mandarins, and then states:

They wear it thrust into a Girdle on the left side, but very much before. The Europeans do corruptly call it Crist

pp. 167-168.

I have several references to the deportation of war captives by the Khmer, Thai, and Burmese, but looking at my notes I do not have complete citations, so I need to go back and confirm in a couple cases which of a particular author's works I was quoting. It takes some time to crawl through the bad handwriting of my notes, unfortunately.