Grandpa's Keris

Daniel · 17th January 2007, 09:33 PM

Hi, I'm new to the forum. Am a long time knife collector, but a novice with ethnographic blades.
My grandfather lived and traveled in Indonesia back in the 50's and brought this back as a souvenir. I remember sneaking into his den and playing with it when I was a boy. When he died I inherited it.
I posted some photos on another knife collecting forum and was told that it was a Balinese kris, that the mounting was modern, but the blade may be older. (How much 'older' was not indicated). That's pretty much all I know about the sword.
I would be happy to get any additional info as to when or where it might have been made, if it is of any particular style, and any info as to who the little figure depicts. I don't plan to ever sell the sword as it has personal value, but I'd like to know if this is a poor example of the type or a good one.
I would also like to know if it would be recommended to clean or treat the blade as is the custom. I can see a limited amount of the pamor, but it is certainly not bold as many of the blades I have been seeing. With most knife collecting, I have learned to leave it as is, but it appears that refinishing the blade is accepted practice with the keris. I'd like to know what the experts would do with a keris like this.
Thanks for your help. DD

Emanuel · 18th January 2007, 04:31 AM

Hello Daniel, welcome to the forum.
This does look like a Bali keris, I can't really tell the dapur (shape)besides that it has 7 luk and a nice prabot (chiselled details) which looks very nice and well done. I've been wanting to get one for a long time, I think they're magnificent.
It would be nice to get a high-contrast pamor out of this keris, but the cleaning is quite an involved process, and unless you're ready to dabble with chemistry and use some arsenic-based warangan solution, it'd be nice to find someone who can do it for you. I've tried contacting some chemistry professors at my university for assistance, but no luck yet.
The hilt figure is a Raksasa demon I believe, and it sort of looks like many of the new ones on ebay. The scabbard also looks much too busily decorated to me, but that's just an opinion based on very little contact with keris.
You'll get lots of much better info soon from those who know

Regards,
Emanuel

Rick · 18th January 2007, 04:42 AM

Hmmm, I count only 5 waves .

I wonder if the entire suite might be mid-20th C.

Emanuel · 18th January 2007, 04:42 AM

Ah here's a similar one: http://old.blades.free.fr/keris/coll...bali/kba07.htm very much like yours...and the scabbard could be authentic it seems.

Oops, right Rick, I looked at the wrong picture and didn't see which side I was looking at

How worn do old Balinese blades get? Do they get the jagged edges of old Javanese blades after many cleanings?

David · 18th January 2007, 05:13 AM

Welcome Daniel. Sorry to counter you Manolo, but this is a 5 luk(curve) keris, not 7. The number is reached by counting the inside of the curve and alternating from one side to the other. It is, indeed, Balinese and i would agree that the blade is older than the dress. The dress was probably contempory to the time your granddad picked this keris up. It is not very high end, but i think it is a step above the "tourist" dress being made today. Edward Frey identifies this type of dress as being for a barong dance keris, but they seem to also be common for sale to tourists. I don't believe the figure is meant to be a raksasa, but may be a form of a rice deity whose name alludes me at the moment. Someone here will no doubt know. Note that he holds a sheath of rice over his shoulder. The blade is much nicer than the dress, though it is hard to say how much nicer since it is "out of stain" and it is hard to judge the pamor(pattern) work. Age is always difficult to determine, but i would put this one in the 19th century and it may be as old around the middle of that century.
I don't know if there is anyone in your area that can do this work, but it would be really nice to see this keris cleaned and restained. Re-staining would be what i would do with it since you have asked and you are correct that it is the tradition to do so. Old Bali keris are getting very hard to find so i would say this one is a keeper.

David · 18th January 2007, 05:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Hmmm, I count only 5 waves .

I wonder if the entire suite might be mid-20th C.

Sorry, i type slowly.

Rick, what makes you suspect this blade isn't that old?

kai · 18th January 2007, 09:16 AM

To me the blade doesn't look like it has been forged just before being picked up. I believe the workmanship on the prabot details is average at most for Balinese standards - it's a nice blade though! (I yet have to come across a genuine keris Bali blade which I don't like...

)

My best guess would be first half of the 20th century (19th c. seems also possible). I'd be interested to hear wether this piece shows any details which would specifically indicate 19th c. or otherwise.

Anyway, congrats Daniel - that's a really nice start for a keris collection!

Regards,
Kai

kai · 18th January 2007, 09:29 AM

Hello Daniel,

Quote:

I would also like to know if it would be recommended to clean or treat the blade as is the custom. I can see a limited amount of the pamor, but it is certainly not bold as many of the blades I have been seeing.

I'd thoroughly clean the blade with vinegar (after degreasing!). Sometimes, the arsenic left on the blade is enough to leave a nice stain. AFAIK you usually won't see as bold a pamor as commonly seen in keris Jawa.

If you stick to some precautions, you can also try to do the warangan staining yourself if needed (search for older threads to get details on several approaches). Since Bali blades are kept smooth this seems to be easier to get right than with staining keris Jawa.

Regards,
Kai

David · 18th January 2007, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

My best guess would be first half of the 20th century (19th c. seems also possible). I'd be interested to hear wether this piece shows any details which would specifically indicate 19th c. or otherwise.

This is a good question Kai, and it is not something which has been written up very much AFAIK. My reasoning for dating this one a little bit earlier might be completely off-base. I have noticed that pretty much all of my Bali keris tend to rise up in a slight curve at the tail end of the gonjo towards the body of the blade. This angle often follows though into forming part of the greneng. This gonjo, however, goes straight across. I have one older Bali keris that does this (could be early - mid 19thC), but i haven't seen it this way on 20thC Bali keris. Could be i just haven't seen enough. Of course, this gonjo is meatier than the one on my older keris, which seems more the style as we move towards the 20thC. Frankly not enough serious work has been done on how to date these keris. Maybe Alan has some ideas.
Kai, i agree that this keris is standard for Bali quality. There is nothing particularly extrordinary about it. But as you say, i love any genuine Bali blade and this one is certainly nice enough to hold on to.

Daniel · 18th January 2007, 03:48 PM

Thank you all for taking the time to post your opinions on this piece. I feel I have a much clearer idea now of what I have.

My Grandfather wasn't a knowlegeable collector, and brought back from his travels a whole mulligan stew of items including spear, blow gun, shields, and a variety of swords and knives. (unfortunately most of which was lost when my Grandma had a yard sale to get rid of "junk") But he had money to spend. This keris may well have been bought as a souvenier. I don't know.

I've had quite a bit of experience with metal finishing and patination--I've done some gunsmithing, antique restoration, etc. And I'm a pretty finicky craftsman. I think I can probably do the cleaning and staining myself. I don't assume it is a highly technical skill such as repolishing a Japanese blade. I'll do some research about the procedure and see what I can come up with. If I am successful, I'll post the results.

Thanks again for all your help.

DD

David · 18th January 2007, 05:42 PM

You might find this thread helpful. The hardest part is findind the arsenic trioxide. Other substances will darken a keris blade, but only arsenic will give you the correct colors, and even though, only if done properly. I would recommend that to make you initial attempts on some cheap blades, but even if you work on this one the process is, for the most part, reversable, as long as you don't seriously over-etch and eat away at the blade. That's kinda hard to do with pineapple juice or other fruit acids though.

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000717.html

Rick · 18th January 2007, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Sorry, i type slowly.

Rick, what makes you suspect this blade isn't that old?

I guess it's a gut feeling; the garap seems a bit hurried and uneven; also the pamor (what I can see of it) looks like pamors found on 20thC examples.

Marcokeris · 19th January 2007, 05:01 PM

Hallo Daniel

1)To clean a rusty blade you can use lemon juice mixed together bi-carb of soda, dish-soap and a little water. Use a toothbrush. Wait for some minutes. After clean the blade with water and repeat until the blade is clean.

2)then you can use warangan. Pay attention: don't use any chimic arsenic ARE DANGEROUS!! You must do like indonesian people: you have to use realgar (natural arsenic stone).
White realgar stone is not good: is good only to kill big rats. Orange-pink china realgar is good.
If you don't have warangan (realgar) you can try to buy realgar in a mineral shop for collectors' stones in your cowntry but is better to have indonesian (china) realgar.

3) then mill warangan like dust (the stone is very powdered). The colour of dust will be rather white. Mixed warangan together some lemon juice (eastern lime or western lemon are the same). 3/4 litre lemon juice for one grams warangam.

4) Wait for a week. Then , during good season, put the blade inside solution and wait for some minutes (turn the blade). After put the blade to dry in the shadow.
PAY ATTENTION: is better you don't have any cuts in your fingers and don't smoke (you can touch the cigarette's filter with fingers wet by warangan)

5) Repeat this until the blade becames black (and nichel remains white or grey). After wash the blade with water and soup and after only with water. If the blade is too black you can use a little lemon juice ogether water
IS VERY IMPORTANT TO DECIDE THE RIGHT MOMENT TO STOP THE PROCESS: WHEN THE BLADE MEET WATER THE BLADE BECAMES MORE DARKER.

6) dry the blade and put oil (If you don't have oil: Ballistol oil is good)

7) good lack

Daniel · 19th January 2007, 09:12 PM

Thanks again for all the information. It certainly sounds like something I could do.

DD

A. G. Maisey · 19th January 2007, 11:02 PM

Stylistically this keris is Bali, there is no doubt of that, but as Rick points out the pamor does not really look much like the pamor we associate with Bali.The workmanship is a little on the rough side for Bali,but we should remember that not everybody could afford the work of a top maker. I suspect that the gonjo might be a replacement---not because of the different material, that is not unusual, but because of the variation in the greneng and the lack of flow under the sirah cecak.I believe it would pre-date WWII, because to the best of my knowledge no keris were made in Bali from at least the time of the Japanese occupation, perhaps earlier, until recent times.

On the subject of staining and arsenic.
I am 66 years old. I stained my first keris blade when I was in my teens. I lost count a long time ago of how many I have stained. I have used laboratory quality white arsenic for all except a couple of the blades I have stained in Australia, and for the few that I have done while I've been in Jawa I have used warangan. Generally speaking, I have nearly always got faster results with warangan, however, probably the blades that I regard as the best stains I have ever achieved have been done with lab. quality arsenic trioxide.

Arsenic is extremely poisonous. There is no doubt of that. However, used with normal caution there is no need to be afraid of it. Not that many years ago electricity distributors and telephone authorities used wooden poles to carry their lines. These wooden poles were treated with arsenic before they were put in the ground. The men who did this work worked at it as their normal employment. Periodically they were medically examined to check for unacceptable levels of arsenic in their bodies. Very, very rarely was one of these people ever identified with excess arsenic levels.

On the subject of blade cleaning.
If fruit acids are used, either brushed on, or as a soak, no damage will be done to even a fragile old blade.
If bi-carbonate of soda is mixed with a fruit acid, it will reduce the acidic qualities of the fruit acid, and the cleaning process will be slower, in fact, it could even be non-existant.
Bi-carbonate of soda is useful, when painted on as a slurry after etching damascus to halt the further action of the etchant.

It is best that the staining process continues on immediatly after the cleaning process. Delays between cleaning and staining can allow rust to reform in humid conditions.

There are a number of ways in which to stain a keris blade. I've even used sulphur and rice water to achieve a stain, however, some ways are easier than others, and some ways will give more definite results than others.

David · 20th January 2007, 01:13 AM

Thanks Alan. You and Rick have better eyes than i do for the possible pamor pattern on this keris. Maybe that "gut feeling" of yours is working well. Your theory that the gonjo might be a replacement was something i hadn't thought about and might explain why it fits differently than most 20thC Bali keris. Still i wonder why a keris that is only 70-80 yrs. old would be in need of a replacement gonjo.
I completely agree with your advice on staining Alan (probably because i have followed your instruction from the start

) . I have used arsenic trioxide with great success over the past few years. I have never tried realgar. Actually i would think one might want to take extra precautions using the mineral form since grinding the stone to powder is much more likely to make the arsenic airborne and it would be easier to inhale the stuff. I definetely think the industrial arsenic trioxide is the way to go if you can get it. As with any poisonous chemical, use common sense and there is nothing to fear.

A. G. Maisey · 20th January 2007, 01:37 AM

Maybe the original gonjo was damaged, or lost, or maybe,maybe, maybe. Once you start guessing, anything is possible.All I know is that the gonjo on this keris shows a couple of things that do not agree with the workmanship in the body of the blade.

Let me make this very, very clear:- I am most definitely not recommending the procedure which follows:-

Empu Suparman would grind his warangan with the same mortar and pestle that his wife used to grind spices; sometimes he would make the concession of covering either mortar or pestle with a folded plastic bag, sometimes not.He passed away in 1995 of emphysema. His wife passed away last year of old age---probably a heart attack or stroke.

David · 20th January 2007, 02:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Empu Suparman would grind his warangan with the same mortar and pestle that his wife used to grind spices; sometimes he would make the concession of covering either mortar or pestle with a folded plastic bag, sometimes not.He passed away in 1995 of emphysema. His wife passed away last year of old age---probably a heart attack or stroke.

Henk · 20th January 2007, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I have used laboratory quality white arsenic for all except a couple of the blades I have stained in Australia, and for the few that I have done while I've been in Jawa I have used warangan. Generally speaking, I have nearly always got faster results with warangan, however, probably the blades that I regard as the best stains I have ever achieved have been done with lab. quality arsenic trioxide.

Allan,
Do you use fruit acid in combinition with white arsenic? And how much arsenic do you use on how much fruit acid? I've heard one gram arsenic on 3/4 litre lemon- or limejuice, to a teaspoon or even a large spoon on a litre lemonjuice.

Maybe it is interesting to describe the process of staining, like you do it. That question is so many times asked here on the forum. What do you use for the staining and how have you to do it for a good result?

Let the master speak.........

A. G. Maisey · 20th January 2007, 09:53 PM

Henk, let's settle one thing first:-

I am not a master.

I might know a little bit about keris, and some of the things connected to keris.

In the field of keris I do not believe anybody can lay claim to being a "master".

Those of us who have devoted considerable time to the study of keris seem to have gathered information about different aspects of the keris, from different quarters. None of us have it all : we all have a little bit.

To clean a blade I have found tinned pineapple juice to be the best agent by far. I've tried a few different things, but only with pineapple juice can I leave a frail old blade in the juice for 2 or 3 weeks, and know that it will do absolutely no damage to the metal.

In my experience the only satisfactory fruit juice to use with the arsenic for staining is Tahitian lime juice. The full process that I use is available through the link that David provided. Scroll down until you come to a post by Wong Desa.

I probably should add this:- the method I have given is only one of many, but it is the one that I think will give an inexperienced person the most reliable result. There is one method that will give a far better result than any other method, however I am not prepared to publish this method because it is potentially very dangerous, and in the absence of hands on personal instruction there is a very high probability of misunderstanding on how it is done.

Henk · 21st January 2007, 09:51 AM

Allan,

Don't take the phrase "Let the master speak" too serious. Here in Holland, and that's the difference between languages and the use of it, that we discussed before, it means: Let the one who has more knowledge about the subject tell us about it.
After all we are all students on this forum, but no one can deny that you have a great knowledge that we all enjoy. And there are certainly more members with great knowledge.
I do agree with you that the study of keris is a study for lifetime and even then how many information one has gathered, one still don't know everything.
I thought the expression was original chinese: "Who knows so much, find out that he knows so little."
I suppose we have settled this now.

I don't have the intention at the moment to stain keris blades. The arsenic stuff is too dangerous for me and as said, a job for the experts , a knowlede I like to use with great gratitude. Besides that I didn't even mention buying the stuff here in Holland. But it is a very intriging subject, that is an indissolubly part of the keris.

A. G. Maisey · 21st January 2007, 09:49 PM

I actually thought your "master" remark might have been light-hearted fun, but although it would come across OK in conversation, in print, and across many cultures, if I accepted your remark without denying it, I could be seen as the one of the greatest egotists who ever sucked air.

It is probably true of many fields of knowledge, and it is certainly true of the keris, that the more you learn, the more you realise how little you know.

Arsenic used to stain keris dangerous?

Yep. About as dangerous as a .44 magnum.

But neither will do you any harm at all if handled as they should be.

17th January 2007, 09:33 PM	#1
Daniel Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: California Posts: 16	Grandpa's Keris Hi, I'm new to the forum. Am a long time knife collector, but a novice with ethnographic blades. My grandfather lived and traveled in Indonesia back in the 50's and brought this back as a souvenir. I remember sneaking into his den and playing with it when I was a boy. When he died I inherited it. I posted some photos on another knife collecting forum and was told that it was a Balinese kris, that the mounting was modern, but the blade may be older. (How much 'older' was not indicated). That's pretty much all I know about the sword. I would be happy to get any additional info as to when or where it might have been made, if it is of any particular style, and any info as to who the little figure depicts. I don't plan to ever sell the sword as it has personal value, but I'd like to know if this is a poor example of the type or a good one. I would also like to know if it would be recommended to clean or treat the blade as is the custom. I can see a limited amount of the pamor, but it is certainly not bold as many of the blades I have been seeing. With most knife collecting, I have learned to leave it as is, but it appears that refinishing the blade is accepted practice with the keris. I'd like to know what the experts would do with a keris like this. Thanks for your help. DD Attached Images

18th January 2007, 04:42 AM	#4
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Ah here's a similar one: http://old.blades.free.fr/keris/coll...bali/kba07.htm very much like yours...and the scabbard could be authentic it seems. Oops, right Rick, I looked at the wrong picture and didn't see which side I was looking at How worn do old Balinese blades get? Do they get the jagged edges of old Javanese blades after many cleanings? Last edited by Manolo; 18th January 2007 at 04:54 AM. Reason: man my eyes are playing tricks...left, right, David, Rick...time I went to sleep

18th January 2007, 04:31 AM	#2
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello Daniel, welcome to the forum. This does look like a Bali keris, I can't really tell the dapur (shape)besides that it has 7 luk and a nice prabot (chiselled details) which looks very nice and well done. I've been wanting to get one for a long time, I think they're magnificent. It would be nice to get a high-contrast pamor out of this keris, but the cleaning is quite an involved process, and unless you're ready to dabble with chemistry and use some arsenic-based warangan solution, it'd be nice to find someone who can do it for you. I've tried contacting some chemistry professors at my university for assistance, but no luck yet. The hilt figure is a Raksasa demon I believe, and it sort of looks like many of the new ones on ebay. The scabbard also looks much too busily decorated to me, but that's just an opinion based on very little contact with keris. You'll get lots of much better info soon from those who know Regards, Emanuel

18th January 2007, 04:42 AM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Hmmm, I count only 5 waves . I wonder if the entire suite might be mid-20th C.

18th January 2007, 05:13 AM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	Welcome Daniel. Sorry to counter you Manolo, but this is a 5 luk(curve) keris, not 7. The number is reached by counting the inside of the curve and alternating from one side to the other. It is, indeed, Balinese and i would agree that the blade is older than the dress. The dress was probably contempory to the time your granddad picked this keris up. It is not very high end, but i think it is a step above the "tourist" dress being made today. Edward Frey identifies this type of dress as being for a barong dance keris, but they seem to also be common for sale to tourists. I don't believe the figure is meant to be a raksasa, but may be a form of a rice deity whose name alludes me at the moment. Someone here will no doubt know. Note that he holds a sheath of rice over his shoulder. The blade is much nicer than the dress, though it is hard to say how much nicer since it is "out of stain" and it is hard to judge the pamor(pattern) work. Age is always difficult to determine, but i would put this one in the 19th century and it may be as old around the middle of that century. I don't know if there is anyone in your area that can do this work, but it would be really nice to see this keris cleaned and restained. Re-staining would be what i would do with it since you have asked and you are correct that it is the tradition to do so. Old Bali keris are getting very hard to find so i would say this one is a keeper.

18th January 2007, 09:16 AM	#7
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	To me the blade doesn't look like it has been forged just before being picked up. I believe the workmanship on the prabot details is average at most for Balinese standards - it's a nice blade though! (I yet have to come across a genuine keris Bali blade which I don't like... ) My best guess would be first half of the 20th century (19th c. seems also possible). I'd be interested to hear wether this piece shows any details which would specifically indicate 19th c. or otherwise. Anyway, congrats Daniel - that's a really nice start for a keris collection! Regards, Kai

18th January 2007, 03:48 PM	#10
Daniel Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: California Posts: 16	Thank you all for taking the time to post your opinions on this piece. I feel I have a much clearer idea now of what I have. My Grandfather wasn't a knowlegeable collector, and brought back from his travels a whole mulligan stew of items including spear, blow gun, shields, and a variety of swords and knives. (unfortunately most of which was lost when my Grandma had a yard sale to get rid of "junk") But he had money to spend. This keris may well have been bought as a souvenier. I don't know. I've had quite a bit of experience with metal finishing and patination--I've done some gunsmithing, antique restoration, etc. And I'm a pretty finicky craftsman. I think I can probably do the cleaning and staining myself. I don't assume it is a highly technical skill such as repolishing a Japanese blade. I'll do some research about the procedure and see what I can come up with. If I am successful, I'll post the results. Thanks again for all your help. DD

18th January 2007, 05:42 PM	#11
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	You might find this thread helpful. The hardest part is findind the arsenic trioxide. Other substances will darken a keris blade, but only arsenic will give you the correct colors, and even though, only if done properly. I would recommend that to make you initial attempts on some cheap blades, but even if you work on this one the process is, for the most part, reversable, as long as you don't seriously over-etch and eat away at the blade. That's kinda hard to do with pineapple juice or other fruit acids though. http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000717.html

19th January 2007, 05:01 PM	#13
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	Hallo Daniel 1)To clean a rusty blade you can use lemon juice mixed together bi-carb of soda, dish-soap and a little water. Use a toothbrush. Wait for some minutes. After clean the blade with water and repeat until the blade is clean. 2)then you can use warangan. Pay attention: don't use any chimic arsenic ARE DANGEROUS!! You must do like indonesian people: you have to use realgar (natural arsenic stone). White realgar stone is not good: is good only to kill big rats. Orange-pink china realgar is good. If you don't have warangan (realgar) you can try to buy realgar in a mineral shop for collectors' stones in your cowntry but is better to have indonesian (china) realgar. 3) then mill warangan like dust (the stone is very powdered). The colour of dust will be rather white. Mixed warangan together some lemon juice (eastern lime or western lemon are the same). 3/4 litre lemon juice for one grams warangam. 4) Wait for a week. Then , during good season, put the blade inside solution and wait for some minutes (turn the blade). After put the blade to dry in the shadow. PAY ATTENTION: is better you don't have any cuts in your fingers and don't smoke (you can touch the cigarette's filter with fingers wet by warangan) 5) Repeat this until the blade becames black (and nichel remains white or grey). After wash the blade with water and soup and after only with water. If the blade is too black you can use a little lemon juice ogether water IS VERY IMPORTANT TO DECIDE THE RIGHT MOMENT TO STOP THE PROCESS: WHEN THE BLADE MEET WATER THE BLADE BECAMES MORE DARKER. 6) dry the blade and put oil (If you don't have oil: Ballistol oil is good) 7) good lack

19th January 2007, 09:12 PM	#14
Daniel Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: California Posts: 16	Thanks again for all the information. It certainly sounds like something I could do. DD

19th January 2007, 11:02 PM	#15
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	Stylistically this keris is Bali, there is no doubt of that, but as Rick points out the pamor does not really look much like the pamor we associate with Bali.The workmanship is a little on the rough side for Bali,but we should remember that not everybody could afford the work of a top maker. I suspect that the gonjo might be a replacement---not because of the different material, that is not unusual, but because of the variation in the greneng and the lack of flow under the sirah cecak.I believe it would pre-date WWII, because to the best of my knowledge no keris were made in Bali from at least the time of the Japanese occupation, perhaps earlier, until recent times. On the subject of staining and arsenic. I am 66 years old. I stained my first keris blade when I was in my teens. I lost count a long time ago of how many I have stained. I have used laboratory quality white arsenic for all except a couple of the blades I have stained in Australia, and for the few that I have done while I've been in Jawa I have used warangan. Generally speaking, I have nearly always got faster results with warangan, however, probably the blades that I regard as the best stains I have ever achieved have been done with lab. quality arsenic trioxide. Arsenic is extremely poisonous. There is no doubt of that. However, used with normal caution there is no need to be afraid of it. Not that many years ago electricity distributors and telephone authorities used wooden poles to carry their lines. These wooden poles were treated with arsenic before they were put in the ground. The men who did this work worked at it as their normal employment. Periodically they were medically examined to check for unacceptable levels of arsenic in their bodies. Very, very rarely was one of these people ever identified with excess arsenic levels. On the subject of blade cleaning. If fruit acids are used, either brushed on, or as a soak, no damage will be done to even a fragile old blade. If bi-carbonate of soda is mixed with a fruit acid, it will reduce the acidic qualities of the fruit acid, and the cleaning process will be slower, in fact, it could even be non-existant. Bi-carbonate of soda is useful, when painted on as a slurry after etching damascus to halt the further action of the etchant. It is best that the staining process continues on immediatly after the cleaning process. Delays between cleaning and staining can allow rust to reform in humid conditions. There are a number of ways in which to stain a keris blade. I've even used sulphur and rice water to achieve a stain, however, some ways are easier than others, and some ways will give more definite results than others.

20th January 2007, 01:13 AM	#16
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	Thanks Alan. You and Rick have better eyes than i do for the possible pamor pattern on this keris. Maybe that "gut feeling" of yours is working well. Your theory that the gonjo might be a replacement was something i hadn't thought about and might explain why it fits differently than most 20thC Bali keris. Still i wonder why a keris that is only 70-80 yrs. old would be in need of a replacement gonjo. I completely agree with your advice on staining Alan (probably because i have followed your instruction from the start ) . I have used arsenic trioxide with great success over the past few years. I have never tried realgar. Actually i would think one might want to take extra precautions using the mineral form since grinding the stone to powder is much more likely to make the arsenic airborne and it would be easier to inhale the stuff. I definetely think the industrial arsenic trioxide is the way to go if you can get it. As with any poisonous chemical, use common sense and there is nothing to fear.

20th January 2007, 01:37 AM	#17
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	Maybe the original gonjo was damaged, or lost, or maybe,maybe, maybe. Once you start guessing, anything is possible.All I know is that the gonjo on this keris shows a couple of things that do not agree with the workmanship in the body of the blade. Let me make this very, very clear:- I am most definitely not recommending the procedure which follows:- Empu Suparman would grind his warangan with the same mortar and pestle that his wife used to grind spices; sometimes he would make the concession of covering either mortar or pestle with a folded plastic bag, sometimes not.He passed away in 1995 of emphysema. His wife passed away last year of old age---probably a heart attack or stroke.

20th January 2007, 09:53 PM	#20
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	Henk, let's settle one thing first:- I am not a master. I might know a little bit about keris, and some of the things connected to keris. In the field of keris I do not believe anybody can lay claim to being a "master". Those of us who have devoted considerable time to the study of keris seem to have gathered information about different aspects of the keris, from different quarters. None of us have it all : we all have a little bit. To clean a blade I have found tinned pineapple juice to be the best agent by far. I've tried a few different things, but only with pineapple juice can I leave a frail old blade in the juice for 2 or 3 weeks, and know that it will do absolutely no damage to the metal. In my experience the only satisfactory fruit juice to use with the arsenic for staining is Tahitian lime juice. The full process that I use is available through the link that David provided. Scroll down until you come to a post by Wong Desa. I probably should add this:- the method I have given is only one of many, but it is the one that I think will give an inexperienced person the most reliable result. There is one method that will give a far better result than any other method, however I am not prepared to publish this method because it is potentially very dangerous, and in the absence of hands on personal instruction there is a very high probability of misunderstanding on how it is done.

21st January 2007, 09:51 AM	#21
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Allan, Don't take the phrase "Let the master speak" too serious. Here in Holland, and that's the difference between languages and the use of it, that we discussed before, it means: Let the one who has more knowledge about the subject tell us about it. After all we are all students on this forum, but no one can deny that you have a great knowledge that we all enjoy. And there are certainly more members with great knowledge. I do agree with you that the study of keris is a study for lifetime and even then how many information one has gathered, one still don't know everything. I thought the expression was original chinese: "Who knows so much, find out that he knows so little." I suppose we have settled this now. I don't have the intention at the moment to stain keris blades. The arsenic stuff is too dangerous for me and as said, a job for the experts , a knowlede I like to use with great gratitude. Besides that I didn't even mention buying the stuff here in Holland. But it is a very intriging subject, that is an indissolubly part of the keris.

21st January 2007, 09:49 PM	#22
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	I actually thought your "master" remark might have been light-hearted fun, but although it would come across OK in conversation, in print, and across many cultures, if I accepted your remark without denying it, I could be seen as the one of the greatest egotists who ever sucked air. It is probably true of many fields of knowledge, and it is certainly true of the keris, that the more you learn, the more you realise how little you know. Arsenic used to stain keris dangerous? Yep. About as dangerous as a .44 magnum. But neither will do you any harm at all if handled as they should be.