Tulwar inscription question 2

BBJW · 13th January 2007, 08:51 PM

Hello- Can anyone tell me anything about the markings on this fine tulwar? High quality blade measures 31.5 inches.

Cheers
bbjw

Emanuel · 13th January 2007, 08:57 PM

Hello, hard to make out, but I think your tulwar may have the Mazar-i-Sharif stamp...cannon and minaret.
Emanuel

Jens Nordlunde · 13th January 2007, 10:53 PM

Please try to take the pictures without a blitz, and please try try to take them outside when it is clouted, you will aviod a lot of shadow. Then, maybe we can get a better picture of the what you are asking.

Rick · 14th January 2007, 01:29 AM

Enlarged and sharpened.
Not so sure this is a Mazar stamp.

Jens Nordlunde · 14th January 2007, 11:47 AM

Thank you Rick.

The details shown are from two different tulwars. The square stamp is deep, so it must have been made then the blade was still warm, which could suggest a smith’s mark or maybe an armoury mark – but both suggestions are pure guessing.

The other detail, the ‘eyelashes’ with the three dots at each end could be a copy from European blades, a kind of ‘quality mark’, or they could mean something else, as they are used with the three dots, which are relatively often seen on Indian weapons, but not on European weapons, as far as I know. A funny thing is, that I can not recall to have seen the ‘eyelashes’ on dagger blades – can anyone else?

Rick · 14th January 2007, 04:55 PM

You're very welcome Jens .

Always ready to help out if I can .

Rick

Jim McDougall · 16th January 2007, 12:45 AM

A very good example of a NW India tulwar, and the deep stamp near the forte of the blade is probably arsenal related, with the characters found in the cartouche typically in Urdu. As Rick has noted, the deep arsenal stamps for the Mazir-i-Sharif are found on the Anglo-Afghan military swords from the 1890's, and seem to have been associated with campaigns in NW frontier regions through the 3rd Afghan War.

The 'eyelash' (often termed 'sickle') marks are native interpretation of the early trade blade markings that seem to have derived from Italian blades, particularly Genoa, and diffused widely into centers in Styria, the Caucusus (where the stamps bring the term 'gurda' to the blade, meaning quality) and of course India (then including Afghanistan regions). The Afghan sabre known as the paluoar seems to consistantly have these 'eyelash' marks on the blade, though they do not regularly appear on tulwars. Therefore the thought of the Mazir-i-Sharif stamp, though not the case, does seem a good suggestion. Possibly this blade may have derived from the far northern Afghan regions near the frontier, while the armoury at Mazir-i-Sharif is further away.

Outstanding observation Jens!!

You are right, now that you mention it these marks do not occur on dagger blades. While we know trade blades for swords were a common commodity, it does not seem that such trade existed for dagger blades..or did it?

All best regards,
Jim

P.S. Hey Rick, can you post the Afghan sword?

Rick · 16th January 2007, 02:07 AM

Sure Jim !

Jim McDougall · 16th January 2007, 03:59 AM

Ah Thanks Rick!!!

Yours really is nice, especially with the markings on the quillon (did we ever get them translated?) and intact scabbard.
Memories of the "Great Game"

!!

All the best,
Jim

13th January 2007, 08:51 PM	#1
BBJW Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Idaho, USA Posts: 228	Tulwar inscription question 2 Hello- Can anyone tell me anything about the markings on this fine tulwar? High quality blade measures 31.5 inches. Cheers bbjw Attached Images

14th January 2007, 01:29 AM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Enlarged and sharpened. Not so sure this is a Mazar stamp. Attached Images

14th January 2007, 11:47 AM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Thank you Rick. The details shown are from two different tulwars. The square stamp is deep, so it must have been made then the blade was still warm, which could suggest a smith’s mark or maybe an armoury mark – but both suggestions are pure guessing. The other detail, the ‘eyelashes’ with the three dots at each end could be a copy from European blades, a kind of ‘quality mark’, or they could mean something else, as they are used with the three dots, which are relatively often seen on Indian weapons, but not on European weapons, as far as I know. A funny thing is, that I can not recall to have seen the ‘eyelashes’ on dagger blades – can anyone else? Attached Images

16th January 2007, 02:07 AM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Sure Jim ! Attached Images

13th January 2007, 08:57 PM	#2
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello, hard to make out, but I think your tulwar may have the Mazar-i-Sharif stamp...cannon and minaret. Emanuel

13th January 2007, 10:53 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Please try to take the pictures without a blitz, and please try try to take them outside when it is clouted, you will aviod a lot of shadow. Then, maybe we can get a better picture of the what you are asking.

14th January 2007, 04:55 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	You're very welcome Jens . Always ready to help out if I can . Rick

16th January 2007, 12:45 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,944	A very good example of a NW India tulwar, and the deep stamp near the forte of the blade is probably arsenal related, with the characters found in the cartouche typically in Urdu. As Rick has noted, the deep arsenal stamps for the Mazir-i-Sharif are found on the Anglo-Afghan military swords from the 1890's, and seem to have been associated with campaigns in NW frontier regions through the 3rd Afghan War. The 'eyelash' (often termed 'sickle') marks are native interpretation of the early trade blade markings that seem to have derived from Italian blades, particularly Genoa, and diffused widely into centers in Styria, the Caucusus (where the stamps bring the term 'gurda' to the blade, meaning quality) and of course India (then including Afghanistan regions). The Afghan sabre known as the paluoar seems to consistantly have these 'eyelash' marks on the blade, though they do not regularly appear on tulwars. Therefore the thought of the Mazir-i-Sharif stamp, though not the case, does seem a good suggestion. Possibly this blade may have derived from the far northern Afghan regions near the frontier, while the armoury at Mazir-i-Sharif is further away. Outstanding observation Jens!! You are right, now that you mention it these marks do not occur on dagger blades. While we know trade blades for swords were a common commodity, it does not seem that such trade existed for dagger blades..or did it? All best regards, Jim P.S. Hey Rick, can you post the Afghan sword?

16th January 2007, 03:59 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,944	Ah Thanks Rick!!! Yours really is nice, especially with the markings on the quillon (did we ever get them translated?) and intact scabbard. Memories of the "Great Game" !! All the best, Jim