European Military Patterns- Ethnographic or not?

Mark · 12th January 2007, 03:18 PM

We have discussed from time-to-time whether certain weapons qualify as "ethnographic" for the purposes of this forum (by the way, the name has changed to "Arms & Armour," so we are allowed to discuss non-edged weapons as well

).

What is ethnic to one person is cultural to another. From our Western point of view weapons such as tulwars and keris are "ethnic" because they come from other cultures. On the other hand, our Indian, Malay and Indonesian colleagues would rightly view a US Civil War sabre, a rapier, or a Viking sword as "ethnic."

My view is that any weapon that is specific to a culture meets the definition of "ethnographic." This basically excludes fantasy weapons, or weapons so generic that they are not identifiable as belonging to any particular culture. A switchblade, or a modern machete or handgun could fall into the latter category, for example.

As a practical matter, we don't see much discussion here of Western military weapons, medieval and earlier European weapons, or nihon-to, because collectors of these weapons tend to form a distinct group apart from the collectors of other weapons.

Philip · 13th January 2007, 02:06 AM

Mark,
I made a suggestion for a "sticky" pertaining to the definition of ethnographic, and put it on that thread about the Wehrmacht dagger. Rather than repeat it here, could you check it out and see if it's worth implementing?

Jim McDougall · 16th January 2007, 03:09 AM

Thanks very much Katana

!

Mark, very well explained on the 'ethnographic term' and I'm glad that the arms and armour heading was added to widen our scope. It is of course the nature of studying weapons that there will always be instances where a topic exceed subject guidelines, but it seems one never knows where important data pertinant to our studies may turn up!!~

Paul,
Thank you very much for posting that data on the use of the old M1796 blades, exactly the reference I was thinking of!!!! I really appreciate you posting it, and BTW, its great seeing your posts here!!

With all best regards,
Jim

Mark · 16th January 2007, 04:31 PM

The moderators have been kicking around the idea of defining the meaning of "ethnographic" for this purposes of this forum.

Personally, I hate to give the impression that we are imposing a bright-line exclusion of any one group of collectors. On the other hand, rather by definition this forum is directed to a particular sub-group of weapons & armor.

Anyway, Lee pointed out that he has provided a definition on the main page of the Ethnographic Edged Weapons Resource site page. I have added a sticky note at the top of the General forum, providing this definition.

We are not going to create any particular class of "prohibitted" weapons/armor, though. I think that the natural flow of the forum will be away from discussion of things that do not fit this definition of "ethnographic," so the definition I put up in the sticky post should not be taken as a strict prohibition against any discussion of things falling outside that definition. As several people have pointed out, often there is a direct relation between more standardized weapon and tool patterns and what can be considered "ethnographic," so some discussion of things like military pattern weapons can be enriching to the overall discussion.

The tastes and interests of the forum membership naturally control the type and extent of discussion of weapons and armor on the forum. If a topic has some relevance to our interests, discussion will obviously continue as long as that interest lasts. My guess is that in many cases, a post on a pattern European sabre will be met largely with indifference.

Of course, a post on the latest fantasy offering from Museum Replicas, or a Paul Chen Practical Katana is going to be met with a polite "wrong forum" message from the staff.

13th January 2007, 02:06 AM	#2
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	suggestion for a sticky Mark, I made a suggestion for a "sticky" pertaining to the definition of ethnographic, and put it on that thread about the Wehrmacht dagger. Rather than repeat it here, could you check it out and see if it's worth implementing?

16th January 2007, 03:09 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,893	Thanks very much Katana! Mark, very well explained on the 'ethnographic term' and I'm glad that the arms and armour heading was added to widen our scope. It is of course the nature of studying weapons that there will always be instances where a topic exceed subject guidelines, but it seems one never knows where important data pertinant to our studies may turn up!!~ Paul, Thank you very much for posting that data on the use of the old M1796 blades, exactly the reference I was thinking of!!!! I really appreciate you posting it, and BTW, its great seeing your posts here!! With all best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 16th January 2007 at 03:21 AM.

16th January 2007, 04:31 PM	#4
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	An "official" definition of sorts The moderators have been kicking around the idea of defining the meaning of "ethnographic" for this purposes of this forum. Personally, I hate to give the impression that we are imposing a bright-line exclusion of any one group of collectors. On the other hand, rather by definition this forum is directed to a particular sub-group of weapons & armor. Anyway, Lee pointed out that he has provided a definition on the main page of the Ethnographic Edged Weapons Resource site page. I have added a sticky note at the top of the General forum, providing this definition. We are not going to create any particular class of "prohibitted" weapons/armor, though. I think that the natural flow of the forum will be away from discussion of things that do not fit this definition of "ethnographic," so the definition I put up in the sticky post should not be taken as a strict prohibition against any discussion of things falling outside that definition. As several people have pointed out, often there is a direct relation between more standardized weapon and tool patterns and what can be considered "ethnographic," so some discussion of things like military pattern weapons can be enriching to the overall discussion. The tastes and interests of the forum membership naturally control the type and extent of discussion of weapons and armor on the forum. If a topic has some relevance to our interests, discussion will obviously continue as long as that interest lasts. My guess is that in many cases, a post on a pattern European sabre will be met largely with indifference. Of course, a post on the latest fantasy offering from Museum Replicas, or a Paul Chen Practical Katana is going to be met with a polite "wrong forum" message from the staff.

12th January 2007, 03:18 PM	#1
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	We have discussed from time-to-time whether certain weapons qualify as "ethnographic" for the purposes of this forum (by the way, the name has changed to "Arms & Armour," so we are allowed to discuss non-edged weapons as well ). What is ethnic to one person is cultural to another. From our Western point of view weapons such as tulwars and keris are "ethnic" because they come from other cultures. On the other hand, our Indian, Malay and Indonesian colleagues would rightly view a US Civil War sabre, a rapier, or a Viking sword as "ethnic." My view is that any weapon that is specific to a culture meets the definition of "ethnographic." This basically excludes fantasy weapons, or weapons so generic that they are not identifiable as belonging to any particular culture. A switchblade, or a modern machete or handgun could fall into the latter category, for example. As a practical matter, we don't see much discussion here of Western military weapons, medieval and earlier European weapons, or nihon-to, because collectors of these weapons tend to form a distinct group apart from the collectors of other weapons.