Curved Flyssa in St-Petersburg museum...Ariel, Jim, Ham...somebody please explain!!!

[ariel]

One of the defining features of both Flyssa and BSY is theeir "bayoneted" point, ie very narrow and needle-like tip obviously designed for thrusting.
The same feature can be seen in Central Asia ( see my earlier post
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2695 as well as on the Polish Tatar sabers of 14-16th century called Ordynka ( "orda"= "horde") or Czeczuga ( pronounced Chechuga). Traditionally, this name was attributed to a particular kind of fish (sturgeon?) that this saber allegedly reminds.
Thanks to Rivkin, I got a copy of the PhD dissertation by Nakov " Circassian ( Adyghe) bladed weapons", Nalchik, 2004.
Nakov cites a book by G. K. Panchenko " History of the fighting Arts", Moscow, 1997, Vol. 3, p. 305 that states that the name Czeczuga stems from the "...Tatarian people Chechan that lived in the Caucasus'.
Nakov further clarifies that this is the name of one of the subgroups of the Adyghe Bzhedukh tribe, Charcheney.
This brings us to the Circassia:
Here are picks of the 3 classical Circassian swords ( NOT SHASHKA! This is different!) 14-17th century ( From Astvatsaturyan's book "Weapons of the Caucasian Nations") and a picture of Polish-Tatar saber of ~ 1600 from J. Gutowski " Bron i uzbrojenie tatarow" ( Arms and Armor of the Tatars).
There is an obvious similarity in the pattern; does it suggest relatedness ( I do not dare imply a commonality )

[Emanuel]

Ariel, the Tartar weapon certainly resembles the second Circassion sabre...almost identical.
The weird thing is that extremely thin point...it's almost recurving, it's like a thin tail or barb (the fish connotation is apt in this case). The flyssa is similar, but none of the straight examples I'm looking at (the inexaustible Oriental Arms archive ) have this feature, and neither does the curved one that started this thread. I can't deny the strong similarity though

The scenario at this point would be that a considerable contingent of Circassians? would have been dispatched to Algeria. The only info I've found so far is that 2000 yeniceri were originally sent to Algiers, their number eventually swelling to 18000 by the French conquest in 1830. Apparently they were garrisoned in Algiers itself, venturing out to put down rebellions and fight border wars/battles with Morroco and Tunisia.
Since Kabylia was generally closed off to Ottoman incursions, how would these Circassian swords have reached such prevalence in Kabylia? If the swords were seen as an exotic commodity to be adopted, how come it wasn't restrained to the elite?

I like these questions a lot! Ottomans kept lots of records...somewhere there must be some registers about the constitution of the troups sent to Algeria. I'll keep looking

Emanuel

[ariel]

There were plenty of opportunities for the Circassians to move around and , thus, share their weapon culture with other nations. First, they were mercenary warriors with the Ottomans and Iranians: in fact, they, together with other Caucasians, constituted the backbone of Persian military. Persians were artisans and bureaucrats; the fighters in their armies were almost all foreighners: Caucasians, Afghanis, Turks etc. As a matter of fact, the very name for the Persian kindjal, Kama (or Qame) is a Circassian one, K'ameh (as per Nakov's PhD dissertation).
Egyptian mamelukes were significantly Caucasians, central Asians (Kazakhs) and Albanians.
Until 1739 Kabarda was a vassal of the Crimean Khanate that was in turn a de facto vassal of the Ottoman Empire. Following the russian-turkish war of 1829-1829, Russia became a de jure ( it was already de facto) owner of the North-Eastern Black Sea lands. Circassians rebelled and fought the Russians until at least the time of Crimean war
In 1858-1859 about 500,000 Circassians moved ( exiled, in fact) to Turkey and there were re-settled in the Balkans, North Africa, Syria/ Jordan (not yet in existence) and Arabia proper.

[Jeff D]

Originally Posted by ariel

One of the defining features of both Flyssa and BSY is theeir "bayoneted" point, ie very narrow and needle-like tip obviously designed for thrusting.

Hi Ariel,

Personally, I think it is this point that actually excludes these from being a thrusting weapon. The point is just too fine. Any thing less than a perfectly executed thrust on a lightly armoured target would simply bend the point harmlessly. On the other hand much has been said about how awkward these weapons are, I actually think they are perfectly suited for the slash and handle similar to most sabers.

My 2 cents.
Jeff

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Hi Ariel,

Personally, I think it is this point that actually excludes these from being a thrusting weapon. The point is just too fine. Any thing less than a perfectly executed thrust on a lightly armoured target would simply bend the point harmlessly. On the other hand much has been said about how awkward these weapons are, I actually think they are perfectly suited for the slash and handle similar to most sabers.

My 2 cents.
Jeff

Back to Nakov:
Circassians used their bayoneted sabers as spears at the beginning of the fight. There are many native stories and songs as well as accounts of the visitors describing the " thrusting" attack. That is beyond any doubt.
But you are right: Circassian sabers had thickened, ribbed bayoneted points and the handle was bent a little toward the edge. These two features made them efficient "thrusters". The Flyssa, indeed, has neither of those features and can be used only for slashing. On the other hand, many external features of the reinterpreted things (not only weapons) are "lost in translation". The appearance may be retained somewhat but the meaning is forgotten....
Trying to construct a convincing story of the unified origin of various swords is like working on the "unified theory" in physics: fascinating, exciting, but largely... doomed to fail

[Jim McDougall]

The quest for the origins of the flyssa as well as the 'Black Sea' yataghan and the possible associations between them has gone on for well beyond the ten plus years that I have been puzzling over them. The similarities were drawn of course as early as 1941 (Jacobsen) and later Seifert (1962).

The curious point on these weapons being so much like those on the Tatar sabres (ordynka) is much too compelling to resist associating them with these sharply pointed swords. The influences of these Tatar weapons were of course no doubt carried with the extensive presence of Circassians in the forces of numerous powers and in many geographic regions.

Concerning the term for these sabres (czeczuga), I am trying to recall the article on Polish sabres by Ostrowski (away from books at the moment). It seems the term may have been with reference to the fishskin grips of these weapons rather than the shape of the blade ? A number of these sabres are with the same hilts but heavier blades without the needle point. Perhaps this might account for the use of term orynka vs. czeczuga?

Returning to the flyssa, it has long been suggested that the 16th century form of yataghan as seen in Suleyman I with widened straight blade had been possible forerunner, and this via Ottomans. While it is true that the Ottomans did not subdue the Kabyles, and controlled primarily the littoral along the Maghreb, there were constant incursions into these regions. The Kabyles seem to have been situated in more mountainous regions, so I am wondering how much cavalry use would have applied to the flyssa.

As far as military sources such as the Foreign Legion, in research some years ago I was hoping to discover early examples of flyssa, and did contact the Foreign Legion museum in France. They hold a provenaced example of flyssa (exactly as form/decoration typically seen) which was captured in a battle with Kabyles in 1857. The only earlier reference to these was I believe 1827 when one was presented diplomatically to an envoy from Spain (though unfortunately denoted by term, no illustration). It seems clear that these, as the BSY, were a very late developing weapon, and there seem to be no prototypical examples to suggest development, which suggests possible atavistic appearance, from earlier weapons.

Earlier references (Jacobsen, Seifert op.cit.) suggest that the 'sapara' may have influenced the recurved blade on the BSY, while there have been many suggestions that Meditteranean weapons such as the ancient machaira may have been the source for the flyssa. In either case, the employment of the needle point seems to apply more to the Circassian/Tatar influence.

What is most unclear about these weapons is thier use. With the BSY, a needle point for thrusting seems absurd with such a recurved blade, and with the flyssa, a thrust with a weapon with small grip and no supporting guard seems equally absurd. It would seem the emphasis would be on slashing cuts, which would be of course ridiculous against mail armor. The use of these weapons remains a complete conundrum.

I am really glad that these discussions came up, and think that excellent observations are being shared on these mysterious weapons!!!

I have always hoped that anyone out there with access to French narratives or Ottoman resources might be able to discover any reference to the Kabyles and the flyssa's use.

All best regards,
Jim