Moro or Malaysian Kris?

VVV · 12th December 2006, 02:15 PM

This Kris was part of a lot of Indonesian/Malaysian Keris I found so it was posted on the Keris forum.
I thought it was Sulu, maybe redressed in Borneo.
But Ian noticed that it maybe could be Malaysian and didn't look like a typical Moro Kris.

So I post it here instead with hope of further comments to help me understand from where it originates?

Michael

Quotes from earlier discussion between Ian and me at the Keris forum.

Ian:
"That Kalis Sulu is beautiful. The ivory kakatua is considerably smaller than most. Do you have any idea where this one originated? I'm wondering if it came from Brunei or Malaysia because it is somewhat atypical for a traditional Moro kris."

Michael:
"I suspect that it maybe could come from NW Borneo based on the motifs on the silver band. But that's just a guess and I still think it's Sulu.
Please convince me if that's not the case?"

Ian:
"The reason that I think it is odd for Sulu (that is, Moro) is the hilt: a smaller than average kakatua and the continuous silver wrap to the hilt which has an octagonal "tubular" apeparance. The usual form of Moro silver hilt dress would be circular or oval bands of silver that overlap. Also, there is a small "lip" to the silver handle sheath just above the gangya -- not commonlty seen on Moro weapons.

That said, there was a lot of interaction between the Sulu and Brunei Sultanates, so some diffusion of styles each way probably occurred. Indeed "Sulu" has sometimes been used to include Brunei, so we may be splitting hairs."

I misunderstood what Ian meant with the octagonal hilt so Ian clarified:

"What I meant to say is that an octagonal hilt, per se, is not rare on Moro kris, but a continuous silver "sleeve" as shown in your first example above is something that I have not seen before."

And then I responded after not having found any resembling Moro Kris:

"I have been doing some research on this Kris but no success so far.
Maybe it is from Malaysia as you suggest?
I found this illustration (blew up the relevant part of it) of Sultan Abdullah and chiefs of Perak from 1878."

More pictures at

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php

Lew · 12th December 2006, 03:23 PM

Moro kris with an Indonesian scabbard.

Lew

David · 12th December 2006, 05:08 PM

I have to say that the blade itself looks very Moro to me, though the greneng is very Indo. But it seems that i have seen this more Indo looking greneng on other Moro examples and it may just be something retained on early Moro pieces from it's Indo origins. The sheath on the other hand is just a larger version of a Jawa gayaman style and the hilt doesn't look particularly Moro to me, so i would vote for a Moro blade redressed somewhere in Indonesia.

Rick · 12th December 2006, 05:25 PM

Do we know the dimensions of this sword?

VVV · 12th December 2006, 05:55 PM

Thanks all for your comments.

The Kris is overall 67 cm/26.4 inch with a 52 cm/20.4 inch blade.
I also think that the blade has some age based on the keris-characteristics, light weight and thin blade.
The only place in Indonesia where I know Moro Kris, or Keris Sundang, have been found is Kalimantan, Sulawesi and Sumatra?
And then of course Malaysia is an option?

Michael

kai · 12th December 2006, 08:07 PM

Hello Michael,

Quote:

This Kris was part of a lot of Indonesian/Malaysian Keris <snip>

I found this illustration (blew up the relevant part of it) of Sultan Abdullah and chiefs of Perak from 1878.

I still believe that the key to narrow down its last usage may be found in the engraving work on the scabbard and hilt; considering the trade throughout the archipelago that won't help to ascertain the origin of the blade (which could well be Sulu) though.

Michael, could you please try to take pencil rubbings from the silverwork engraving? It's hard to see details from pics... Thanks!

Regards,
Kai

VVV · 12th December 2006, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Michael, could you please try to take pencil rubbings from the silverwork engraving? It's hard to see details from pics... Thanks!

Hi Kai,

Never been a great artist but here you have from the scabbard.
Unfortunately the hilt engravings didn't come up.

Michael

Battara · 13th December 2006, 07:02 PM

Everything but the blade scream Indonesia. The blade is Moro, probably Sulu. The rest - no. This includes the type of chasing work on the silver mounts and especially the silver grip, never mind the scabbard. Trade did go on in the region, not too shocked to see this.

VVV · 15th December 2006, 01:56 PM

Thanks Jose,

Has anybody seen a pommel of this small size before on a Kris?
Any other clues?
Here is a close up of the hilt.

Michael

Bill · 15th December 2006, 02:28 PM

From your pictures, the patina on the ivory looks like it's pretty old. It looks like everything is very old. The kakatua on the one I'm posting is bigger, but has some simularities. The "elephant" head is also simular. Would guess the age is about the same on both too. The one I'm posting, I would have thought came from Sulawesi or Brunei. I think there was a post sometime ago where someone stated the metal wrap on the hilt was Malay, Riau or the straits area. The Bugis would be common to the whole area.

VVV · 15th December 2006, 02:48 PM

Nice Kris!

Do you have a close up of the hilt?
I will try to find the thread you refer to.

Michael

Bill M · 15th December 2006, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I have to say that the blade itself looks very Moro to me, though the greneng is very Indo. But it seems that i have seen this more Indo looking greneng on other Moro examples and it may just be something retained on early Moro pieces from it's Indo origins. The sheath on the other hand is just a larger version of a Jawa gayaman style and the hilt doesn't look particularly Moro to me, so i would vote for a Moro blade redressed somewhere in Indonesia.

Or a Moro blade made by an Indonesian.

I have seen "crossovers" made by Madura smiths working in Java. You get a little of both.

Bill

Battara · 15th December 2006, 05:29 PM

Pommels like this, according to Cato, were made early and are indicative of earlier pieces, 1700s? I think the mounts are later.

VVV · 18th December 2006, 04:34 PM

Just recieved this Christmas card from another collector (not active on the forum).
It's from the Tropenmuseum, Kris from the Sulu archipelago, with a full silver hilt collar resembling mine?

Michael

rasdan · 18th December 2006, 05:19 PM

The one on the card has malay/bugis fittings IMO whatever...and the blade is Sulu(?). This is an example. I had just seen one like this (solid brass hilt) a few weeks back. Its a relative's pusaka. Unfortunately i dont have pictures. Perhaps the key is the difference of the base of the hilt of a moro and malay keris...

VVV · 19th December 2006, 09:57 AM

Thanks all,

Seems to be a consensus that my Kris is of Malay/Bugis, not Moro, origin regarding the dress.
Do you think the blades were imported from the Sulu islands or produced "Sulu style" in Malaysia or Sulawesi?
Or maybe it was the Malay/Sulawesi style of blades that inspired that of the Sulu islands?

Michael

rasdan · 19th December 2006, 03:11 PM

In an old book Tuhfat al Nafis written in 1865, the kampilan and sundang (written as sandang) are attributed to the Sulus. They are not attributed to the Malay or Bugis although it is used by them. Pls correct me if i'm wrong.

A lotta of moro keris are redressed later in malay dress in Malaysia and Sumatra.

VVV · 19th December 2006, 04:27 PM

Thanks for sharing this info Rasdan!

The only source where I, at the moment, remember claims the Sundang as originating in South Sulawesi is Taman Indera by Sheppard.
But his speciality isn't exactly weapons even if the book has a chapter on Malay weapons.
So your source seems more probable that the Sulu Krisses were redressed in Malaysia etc.
On the Kampilan it's not usually attributed to the Sulu archipelago but Mindanao.

Michael

rasdan · 20th December 2006, 02:53 AM

No worries Micheal. I think its the Bugis that introduced Sundang to the Malays in the 1700's. Thats why the Malay will say that Sundang is from the Bugis and later made their own Malay/Bugis version. But who introduced Sundang to the Bugis? Is it theirs? I cant answer this. I think the Sulus. (no proof available at the moment).

Oh, yes.. in the book Kampilan is said to be used by the Lanun. Iranun perhaps? But i guess that the author is not a weapons specialist afterall. Im still checking on this entire theory actually. Maybe im wrong.

VVV · 20th December 2006, 06:50 AM

Rasdan,

Lanun/Iranun/Illanun etc. is a Mindanao tribe. Some of them later settled in North Borneo, Timor and Sulawesi.
They are the ones that brought the Kampilan to those islands so I think the book is correct on that part (even if they didn't come from Sulu).
They are famous for their pirating raids, sometimes reaching the Malay Peninsular.

Michael

rasdan · 20th December 2006, 07:29 AM

Thanks Micheal, i made mistake in my first post.

12th December 2006, 02:15 PM	#1
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Moro or Malaysian Kris? This Kris was part of a lot of Indonesian/Malaysian Keris I found so it was posted on the Keris forum. I thought it was Sulu, maybe redressed in Borneo. But Ian noticed that it maybe could be Malaysian and didn't look like a typical Moro Kris. So I post it here instead with hope of further comments to help me understand from where it originates? Michael Quotes from earlier discussion between Ian and me at the Keris forum. Ian: "That Kalis Sulu is beautiful. The ivory kakatua is considerably smaller than most. Do you have any idea where this one originated? I'm wondering if it came from Brunei or Malaysia because it is somewhat atypical for a traditional Moro kris." Michael: "I suspect that it maybe could come from NW Borneo based on the motifs on the silver band. But that's just a guess and I still think it's Sulu. Please convince me if that's not the case?" Ian: "The reason that I think it is odd for Sulu (that is, Moro) is the hilt: a smaller than average kakatua and the continuous silver wrap to the hilt which has an octagonal "tubular" apeparance. The usual form of Moro silver hilt dress would be circular or oval bands of silver that overlap. Also, there is a small "lip" to the silver handle sheath just above the gangya -- not commonlty seen on Moro weapons. That said, there was a lot of interaction between the Sulu and Brunei Sultanates, so some diffusion of styles each way probably occurred. Indeed "Sulu" has sometimes been used to include Brunei, so we may be splitting hairs." I misunderstood what Ian meant with the octagonal hilt so Ian clarified: "What I meant to say is that an octagonal hilt, per se, is not rare on Moro kris, but a continuous silver "sleeve" as shown in your first example above is something that I have not seen before." And then I responded after not having found any resembling Moro Kris: "I have been doing some research on this Kris but no success so far. Maybe it is from Malaysia as you suggest? I found this illustration (blew up the relevant part of it) of Sultan Abdullah and chiefs of Perak from 1878." More pictures at http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php Attached Images

15th December 2006, 01:56 PM	#9
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks Jose, Has anybody seen a pommel of this small size before on a Kris? Any other clues? Here is a close up of the hilt. Michael Attached Images

15th December 2006, 02:28 PM	#10
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	From your pictures, the patina on the ivory looks like it's pretty old. It looks like everything is very old. The kakatua on the one I'm posting is bigger, but has some simularities. The "elephant" head is also simular. Would guess the age is about the same on both too. The one I'm posting, I would have thought came from Sulawesi or Brunei. I think there was a post sometime ago where someone stated the metal wrap on the hilt was Malay, Riau or the straits area. The Bugis would be common to the whole area. Attached Images

18th December 2006, 04:34 PM	#14
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Just recieved this Christmas card from another collector (not active on the forum). It's from the Tropenmuseum, Kris from the Sulu archipelago, with a full silver hilt collar resembling mine? Michael Attached Images

18th December 2006, 05:19 PM	#15
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	The one on the card has malay/bugis fittings IMO whatever...and the blade is Sulu(?). This is an example. I had just seen one like this (solid brass hilt) a few weeks back. Its a relative's pusaka. Unfortunately i dont have pictures. Perhaps the key is the difference of the base of the hilt of a moro and malay keris... Attached Images

12th December 2006, 03:23 PM	#2
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Moro kris with an Indonesian scabbard. Lew

12th December 2006, 05:08 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,113	I have to say that the blade itself looks very Moro to me, though the greneng is very Indo. But it seems that i have seen this more Indo looking greneng on other Moro examples and it may just be something retained on early Moro pieces from it's Indo origins. The sheath on the other hand is just a larger version of a Jawa gayaman style and the hilt doesn't look particularly Moro to me, so i would vote for a Moro blade redressed somewhere in Indonesia.

12th December 2006, 05:25 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Do we know the dimensions of this sword?

12th December 2006, 05:55 PM	#5
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks all for your comments. The Kris is overall 67 cm/26.4 inch with a 52 cm/20.4 inch blade. I also think that the blade has some age based on the keris-characteristics, light weight and thin blade. The only place in Indonesia where I know Moro Kris, or Keris Sundang, have been found is Kalimantan, Sulawesi and Sumatra? And then of course Malaysia is an option? Michael

13th December 2006, 07:02 PM	#8
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,217	Everything but the blade scream Indonesia. The blade is Moro, probably Sulu. The rest - no. This includes the type of chasing work on the silver mounts and especially the silver grip, never mind the scabbard. Trade did go on in the region, not too shocked to see this.

15th December 2006, 02:48 PM	#11
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Nice Kris! Do you have a close up of the hilt? I will try to find the thread you refer to. Michael

15th December 2006, 05:29 PM	#13
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,217	Pommels like this, according to Cato, were made early and are indicative of earlier pieces, 1700s? I think the mounts are later.

19th December 2006, 09:57 AM	#16
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks all, Seems to be a consensus that my Kris is of Malay/Bugis, not Moro, origin regarding the dress. Do you think the blades were imported from the Sulu islands or produced "Sulu style" in Malaysia or Sulawesi? Or maybe it was the Malay/Sulawesi style of blades that inspired that of the Sulu islands? Michael

19th December 2006, 03:11 PM	#17
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	In an old book Tuhfat al Nafis written in 1865, the kampilan and sundang (written as sandang) are attributed to the Sulus. They are not attributed to the Malay or Bugis although it is used by them. Pls correct me if i'm wrong. A lotta of moro keris are redressed later in malay dress in Malaysia and Sumatra.

19th December 2006, 04:27 PM	#18
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks for sharing this info Rasdan! The only source where I, at the moment, remember claims the Sundang as originating in South Sulawesi is Taman Indera by Sheppard. But his speciality isn't exactly weapons even if the book has a chapter on Malay weapons. So your source seems more probable that the Sulu Krisses were redressed in Malaysia etc. On the Kampilan it's not usually attributed to the Sulu archipelago but Mindanao. Michael

20th December 2006, 02:53 AM	#19
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	No worries Micheal. I think its the Bugis that introduced Sundang to the Malays in the 1700's. Thats why the Malay will say that Sundang is from the Bugis and later made their own Malay/Bugis version. But who introduced Sundang to the Bugis? Is it theirs? I cant answer this. I think the Sulus. (no proof available at the moment). Oh, yes.. in the book Kampilan is said to be used by the Lanun. Iranun perhaps? But i guess that the author is not a weapons specialist afterall. Im still checking on this entire theory actually. Maybe im wrong.

20th December 2006, 06:50 AM	#20
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Rasdan, Lanun/Iranun/Illanun etc. is a Mindanao tribe. Some of them later settled in North Borneo, Timor and Sulawesi. They are the ones that brought the Kampilan to those islands so I think the book is correct on that part (even if they didn't come from Sulu). They are famous for their pirating raids, sometimes reaching the Malay Peninsular. Michael

20th December 2006, 07:29 AM	#21
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	Thanks Micheal, i made mistake in my first post.