Moro or Malaysian Kris?

[VVV]

This Kris was part of a lot of Indonesian/Malaysian Keris I found so it was posted on the Keris forum.
I thought it was Sulu, maybe redressed in Borneo.
But Ian noticed that it maybe could be Malaysian and didn't look like a typical Moro Kris.

So I post it here instead with hope of further comments to help me understand from where it originates?


Michael


Quotes from earlier discussion between Ian and me at the Keris forum.

Ian:
"That Kalis Sulu is beautiful. The ivory kakatua is considerably smaller than most. Do you have any idea where this one originated? I'm wondering if it came from Brunei or Malaysia because it is somewhat atypical for a traditional Moro kris."

Michael:
"I suspect that it maybe could come from NW Borneo based on the motifs on the silver band. But that's just a guess and I still think it's Sulu.
Please convince me if that's not the case?"

Ian:
"The reason that I think it is odd for Sulu (that is, Moro) is the hilt: a smaller than average kakatua and the continuous silver wrap to the hilt which has an octagonal "tubular" apeparance. The usual form of Moro silver hilt dress would be circular or oval bands of silver that overlap. Also, there is a small "lip" to the silver handle sheath just above the gangya -- not commonlty seen on Moro weapons.

That said, there was a lot of interaction between the Sulu and Brunei Sultanates, so some diffusion of styles each way probably occurred. Indeed "Sulu" has sometimes been used to include Brunei, so we may be splitting hairs."

I misunderstood what Ian meant with the octagonal hilt so Ian clarified:

"What I meant to say is that an octagonal hilt, per se, is not rare on Moro kris, but a continuous silver "sleeve" as shown in your first example above is something that I have not seen before."

And then I responded after not having found any resembling Moro Kris:

"I have been doing some research on this Kris but no success so far.
Maybe it is from Malaysia as you suggest?
I found this illustration (blew up the relevant part of it) of Sultan Abdullah and chiefs of Perak from 1878."


More pictures at

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php

[Lew]

Moro kris with an Indonesian scabbard.

Lew

[David]

I have to say that the blade itself looks very Moro to me, though the greneng is very Indo. But it seems that i have seen this more Indo looking greneng on other Moro examples and it may just be something retained on early Moro pieces from it's Indo origins. The sheath on the other hand is just a larger version of a Jawa gayaman style and the hilt doesn't look particularly Moro to me, so i would vote for a Moro blade redressed somewhere in Indonesia.

[Rick]

Do we know the dimensions of this sword?

[VVV]

Thanks all for your comments.

The Kris is overall 67 cm/26.4 inch with a 52 cm/20.4 inch blade.
I also think that the blade has some age based on the keris-characteristics, light weight and thin blade.
The only place in Indonesia where I know Moro Kris, or Keris Sundang, have been found is Kalimantan, Sulawesi and Sumatra?
And then of course Malaysia is an option?

Michael

[kai]

Hello Michael,

This Kris was part of a lot of Indonesian/Malaysian Keris <snip>

I found this illustration (blew up the relevant part of it) of Sultan Abdullah and chiefs of Perak from 1878.

I still believe that the key to narrow down its last usage may be found in the engraving work on the scabbard and hilt; considering the trade throughout the archipelago that won't help to ascertain the origin of the blade (which could well be Sulu) though.

Michael, could you please try to take pencil rubbings from the silverwork engraving? It's hard to see details from pics... Thanks!

Regards,
Kai

[VVV]

Originally Posted by kai

Michael, could you please try to take pencil rubbings from the silverwork engraving? It's hard to see details from pics... Thanks!

Hi Kai,

Never been a great artist but here you have from the scabbard.
Unfortunately the hilt engravings didn't come up.

Michael

[Battara]

Everything but the blade scream Indonesia. The blade is Moro, probably Sulu. The rest - no. This includes the type of chasing work on the silver mounts and especially the silver grip, never mind the scabbard. Trade did go on in the region, not too shocked to see this.

[VVV]

Thanks Jose,

Has anybody seen a pommel of this small size before on a Kris?
Any other clues?
Here is a close up of the hilt.

Michael

[Bill]

From your pictures, the patina on the ivory looks like it's pretty old. It looks like everything is very old. The kakatua on the one I'm posting is bigger, but has some simularities. The "elephant" head is also simular. Would guess the age is about the same on both too. The one I'm posting, I would have thought came from Sulawesi or Brunei. I think there was a post sometime ago where someone stated the metal wrap on the hilt was Malay, Riau or the straits area. The Bugis would be common to the whole area.

[VVV]

Nice Kris!

Do you have a close up of the hilt?
I will try to find the thread you refer to.

Michael

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by David

I have to say that the blade itself looks very Moro to me, though the greneng is very Indo. But it seems that i have seen this more Indo looking greneng on other Moro examples and it may just be something retained on early Moro pieces from it's Indo origins. The sheath on the other hand is just a larger version of a Jawa gayaman style and the hilt doesn't look particularly Moro to me, so i would vote for a Moro blade redressed somewhere in Indonesia.

Or a Moro blade made by an Indonesian.

I have seen "crossovers" made by Madura smiths working in Java. You get a little of both.

Bill

[Battara]

Pommels like this, according to Cato, were made early and are indicative of earlier pieces, 1700s? I think the mounts are later.

[VVV]

Just recieved this Christmas card from another collector (not active on the forum).
It's from the Tropenmuseum, Kris from the Sulu archipelago, with a full silver hilt collar resembling mine?

Michael

[rasdan]

The one on the card has malay/bugis fittings IMO whatever...and the blade is Sulu(?). This is an example. I had just seen one like this (solid brass hilt) a few weeks back. Its a relative's pusaka. Unfortunately i dont have pictures. Perhaps the key is the difference of the base of the hilt of a moro and malay keris...

[VVV]

Thanks all,

Seems to be a consensus that my Kris is of Malay/Bugis, not Moro, origin regarding the dress.
Do you think the blades were imported from the Sulu islands or produced "Sulu style" in Malaysia or Sulawesi?
Or maybe it was the Malay/Sulawesi style of blades that inspired that of the Sulu islands?

Michael

[rasdan]

In an old book Tuhfat al Nafis written in 1865, the kampilan and sundang (written as sandang) are attributed to the Sulus. They are not attributed to the Malay or Bugis although it is used by them. Pls correct me if i'm wrong.

A lotta of moro keris are redressed later in malay dress in Malaysia and Sumatra.

[VVV]

Thanks for sharing this info Rasdan!

The only source where I, at the moment, remember claims the Sundang as originating in South Sulawesi is Taman Indera by Sheppard.
But his speciality isn't exactly weapons even if the book has a chapter on Malay weapons.
So your source seems more probable that the Sulu Krisses were redressed in Malaysia etc.
On the Kampilan it's not usually attributed to the Sulu archipelago but Mindanao.

Michael

[rasdan]

No worries Micheal. I think its the Bugis that introduced Sundang to the Malays in the 1700's. Thats why the Malay will say that Sundang is from the Bugis and later made their own Malay/Bugis version. But who introduced Sundang to the Bugis? Is it theirs? I cant answer this. I think the Sulus. (no proof available at the moment).

Oh, yes.. in the book Kampilan is said to be used by the Lanun. Iranun perhaps? But i guess that the author is not a weapons specialist afterall. Im still checking on this entire theory actually. Maybe im wrong.

[VVV]

Rasdan,

Lanun/Iranun/Illanun etc. is a Mindanao tribe. Some of them later settled in North Borneo, Timor and Sulawesi.
They are the ones that brought the Kampilan to those islands so I think the book is correct on that part (even if they didn't come from Sulu).
They are famous for their pirating raids, sometimes reaching the Malay Peninsular.

Michael

[rasdan]

Thanks Micheal, i made mistake in my first post.