wootz blade welded back together

Tim Simmons · 18th December 2006, 10:38 PM

That is a good point Tom perhaps hinting at a parade or show weapon.

Gt Obach · 20th December 2006, 05:36 PM

nice blade...

if you think about it.... what are pattern welded swords. ? they are a large sandwich/series of welds... and they are not concidered to be a sub standard..... so a single weld, if done right.... would be very good and hold up to much stress !

in this case....wootz welds at a low temp ( due to its high carbon level) ... if over heated, you may lose more pattern .... but this weld was done nicely.....

after welding the blade should be normalized a couple time to reduce grain size..... and return its toughness..... small grain is tough... large grain can be very problematic

i'm not sure how this weld was done.... but i would suppose it is a lap weld... as you need extra material in the weld area.... so you can forge the sword back to shape with a similar cross section...

just my opinion
Greg

Philip · 21st December 2006, 02:47 AM

Greg
You're spot on in your comments about what would ensure a sound weld on a piece such as this.

I'm also amazed at the ability of the smith who did this weld joint, he certainly knew how to control his temperature. There are enough wootz blades out there whose blades are intact and in one single piece from forte to tip, which nonetheless show melding of the carbide networks (resulting in patches of gray) in areas due to overheating.

I polished the blade that's shown in this post. The joint is lapped a little ways. When it was sent to me by its owner for repair, I could see a patch of cross-hatching and remains of a clumsily-executed gold onlay inscription panel (reading "Iran" on a sword of typically north Indian workmanship). Though not apparent at the time, this decoration was put right over the weld joint. (an odd place for an inscription cartouche, on Indian and Persian blades they are almost always at the forte, about 4-6 in. ahead of guard) The sword's owner, realizing that the gold work was not original to the blade (it didn't match the rest of the decor in terms of quality and age), requested that it be polished over, and that's when the weld joint was discovered.

Gt Obach · 21st December 2006, 05:15 AM

good call... I would have done the same and polished out the cartouche... -
the weld line tells a story ... with a sharply beveled scarf on both sides.. this is abit harder weld to make... i'm positive that there was more than one smith working on this... one smith pull the tip out and places the bottom scarf on the anvil and the master would pull the hilt piece out and line up the weld and set it.. (you have such a very short time to line up the weld.... I try to get things lined up and set in under 3 sec). then both would work the weld in time...... tap ...Bang.. tap .... Bang... etc
-- experience and talent to weld it that nicely

yesterday i forgewelded a pair of broken wrought iron tongs...the handle had snapped.. much different material ... but still it gets interesting when your trying to get two parts of the handle to line up ....when they are at a white welding heat... then grab a hammer to set it...

if i were to guess... wootz would probably weld at a brite orange to very low yellow heat..... not sure what you'd use for flux... borax gets nice and bubbly at a brite yellow heat ( the weld temp for lotsa tool steels and too high for wootz)...
-- hmm... wonder what they used for flux ?

Greg

Philip · 21st December 2006, 07:39 AM

Greg,
What a pleasure to hear from someone on this thread with hands-on experience in actually making blades! Having done only basic blade forging myself (my focus is on polishing), I can't comment on the type of flux that smiths used in working in wootz. There are two occasional contributors to this forum who are well-versed in these crystalline damascus steels, Ann Feuerbach and Ric Furrer. Ann, as you might know from previous threads, has done extensive field research into wootz manufacture from the historical standpoint, and Ric is one of the few smiths who are actually making their own wootz, and doing it damn well. I hope that either of these experts will notice your comment and chime in here.

Borax (initially brought from Europe) came into widespread use in the Far East from the 18th cent. onwards, although the cultures in this area did pattern-weld, not wootz. Prior to that, rice straw ash was commonly used. This info was passed along to me by Francis Boyd, an accomplished smith working in Berkeley, CA. Perhaps you guys are acquainted?

Gt Obach · 21st December 2006, 06:12 PM

both Ann and Ric are great people

the sand fluxs i've tried work well but at a very high heat... for wrought and bloom steel.. .. at least these fluxs were very thick and goobery at an orange heat.. it would be very hard to squeeze this out of the weld boundary during hammering...
-- not sure on the rice ash... ( impossible to find around here... )

it maybe that something was added to the borax to lower its melting point... if borax wasn't there.... then i'm not sure at all

maybe flurospar... .. never worked it and don't want too either... bad fumes
-- but its a very aggressive flux agent

Greg

Jens Nordlunde · 21st December 2006, 07:16 PM

Would the blade have a different 'sound' to it, after it had been put together?

21st December 2006, 07:39 AM	#5
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	flux Greg, What a pleasure to hear from someone on this thread with hands-on experience in actually making blades! Having done only basic blade forging myself (my focus is on polishing), I can't comment on the type of flux that smiths used in working in wootz. There are two occasional contributors to this forum who are well-versed in these crystalline damascus steels, Ann Feuerbach and Ric Furrer. Ann, as you might know from previous threads, has done extensive field research into wootz manufacture from the historical standpoint, and Ric is one of the few smiths who are actually making their own wootz, and doing it damn well. I hope that either of these experts will notice your comment and chime in here. Borax (initially brought from Europe) came into widespread use in the Far East from the 18th cent. onwards, although the cultures in this area did pattern-weld, not wootz. Prior to that, rice straw ash was commonly used. This info was passed along to me by Francis Boyd, an accomplished smith working in Berkeley, CA. Perhaps you guys are acquainted?

18th December 2006, 10:38 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	That is a good point Tom perhaps hinting at a parade or show weapon.

20th December 2006, 05:36 PM	#2
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	nice blade... if you think about it.... what are pattern welded swords. ? they are a large sandwich/series of welds... and they are not concidered to be a sub standard..... so a single weld, if done right.... would be very good and hold up to much stress ! in this case....wootz welds at a low temp ( due to its high carbon level) ... if over heated, you may lose more pattern .... but this weld was done nicely..... after welding the blade should be normalized a couple time to reduce grain size..... and return its toughness..... small grain is tough... large grain can be very problematic i'm not sure how this weld was done.... but i would suppose it is a lap weld... as you need extra material in the weld area.... so you can forge the sword back to shape with a similar cross section... just my opinion Greg

21st December 2006, 02:47 AM	#3
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Greg You're spot on in your comments about what would ensure a sound weld on a piece such as this. I'm also amazed at the ability of the smith who did this weld joint, he certainly knew how to control his temperature. There are enough wootz blades out there whose blades are intact and in one single piece from forte to tip, which nonetheless show melding of the carbide networks (resulting in patches of gray) in areas due to overheating. I polished the blade that's shown in this post. The joint is lapped a little ways. When it was sent to me by its owner for repair, I could see a patch of cross-hatching and remains of a clumsily-executed gold onlay inscription panel (reading "Iran" on a sword of typically north Indian workmanship). Though not apparent at the time, this decoration was put right over the weld joint. (an odd place for an inscription cartouche, on Indian and Persian blades they are almost always at the forte, about 4-6 in. ahead of guard) The sword's owner, realizing that the gold work was not original to the blade (it didn't match the rest of the decor in terms of quality and age), requested that it be polished over, and that's when the weld joint was discovered.

21st December 2006, 05:15 AM	#4
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	good call... I would have done the same and polished out the cartouche... - the weld line tells a story ... with a sharply beveled scarf on both sides.. this is abit harder weld to make... i'm positive that there was more than one smith working on this... one smith pull the tip out and places the bottom scarf on the anvil and the master would pull the hilt piece out and line up the weld and set it.. (you have such a very short time to line up the weld.... I try to get things lined up and set in under 3 sec). then both would work the weld in time...... tap ...Bang.. tap .... Bang... etc -- experience and talent to weld it that nicely yesterday i forgewelded a pair of broken wrought iron tongs...the handle had snapped.. much different material ... but still it gets interesting when your trying to get two parts of the handle to line up ....when they are at a white welding heat... then grab a hammer to set it... if i were to guess... wootz would probably weld at a brite orange to very low yellow heat..... not sure what you'd use for flux... borax gets nice and bubbly at a brite yellow heat ( the weld temp for lotsa tool steels and too high for wootz)... -- hmm... wonder what they used for flux ? Greg

21st December 2006, 06:12 PM	#6
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	both Ann and Ric are great people the sand fluxs i've tried work well but at a very high heat... for wrought and bloom steel.. .. at least these fluxs were very thick and goobery at an orange heat.. it would be very hard to squeeze this out of the weld boundary during hammering... -- not sure on the rice ash... ( impossible to find around here... ) it maybe that something was added to the borax to lower its melting point... if borax wasn't there.... then i'm not sure at all maybe flurospar... .. never worked it and don't want too either... bad fumes -- but its a very aggressive flux agent Greg

21st December 2006, 07:16 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Would the blade have a different 'sound' to it, after it had been put together?