1796 spanish broadsword - hilt ?

Rivkin · 8th February 2005, 06:44 PM

Hi,

I've seen a surprising big number of 1796 (or so claimed) spanish cavalry broadswords, but all with hilts different from the one that I usually see in catalogues.

Is it possible or it's a scam ?

Thank you,

K.Rivkin

Jim McDougall · 8th February 2005, 07:38 PM

Rivkin,
Not sure what you're referring to...is there a picture of the type you're alluding to? There are a number of Spanish 'cavalry' swords I believe made by repro companies, but those are quite obvious.Can you possibly be a bit more specific?
Jim

Marc · 8th February 2005, 11:29 PM

I want to echo Jim's questions.
Do you mean this one when referring to the one you usally see in the catalogues?

Just to see what we're really talking about...

Rivkin · 9th February 2005, 12:13 AM

Thank you very much - yes, that's the one. I've seen so many of them with the same guard and blade, but the hilt itself would have a different shape - for example it would contain extra rings below the pommel, or it would be conical, or it would simply be a tube with a pommel...

Marc · 9th February 2005, 09:38 AM

Ah, you mean the grip/handle...

yes, there's indeed some variation, though the one in the above picture, barrel-shaped, copper -bound, and with the four longitudinal iron ribs is the most characteristic. You're going to find the same variety of handles in the Spanish Cavalry broadsword M1728 (with a hilt of the so-called "bilbo" type). Officers and special corps (like the Royal Guard) kind of "personalized" their weapons, sometimes, so you can find things like etchings in the guard or alternative handles (some I've seen, cylindrical and silver-bound with turk's heads comes to mind, for example). Not to mention much later "restorations" and ... well, "improvements".

I wonder if I answered your question or not...

Marc

Jim McDougall · 9th February 2005, 11:53 PM

Hi Marc,
Outstanding! I'm glad you came in on this as I had hoped. Your perception was right on target in thinking of this particular form, which as you note is often termed 'bilbo'. With your knowledge on Spanish swords, I wonder if you could give your take on the origin of this term, which seems rather speculative in some references which suggest the city of Bilbao as possibly the derivation.
Best regards,
Jim

Marc · 10th February 2005, 10:34 AM

Hi, Jim. Long time no talk...

I'm always lurking around here.

I'm not sure I'm following you, but just to clarify things for those who can be reading this... the above picture corresponds to the so-called Spanish Pattern 1796 (or M1796) for cavalry. The dating for this pattern is somewhat controversial, though, but this style of sword is still broadly known under this name, so let's stick to it for now on behalf of clarity...
The "bilbo" (making reference to the Basque city of Bilbao) label is given to a form of hilt typical for Spanish swords, featuring both rapier and "broadsword" blades, with a double shell, that is around since mid-17h c. It became even more widely known when this type of hilt, with minor variations, was used for the Spanish Pattern M1728 Cavalry broadsword, officially in use for the most part of the 18th century.
Pics courtesy of Liongate Arms and Armour:

Back to you, Jim, I'm afraid the term "Bilbo" is one of those that has changed its meaning through time. For example, I'm aware that there's a mention of it in one of Shakespeare's plays ("Much ado About Nothing", I think, but I'm not sure...), but it necessarily meant something different at that time. There has been references to swords called "bilbo" since them, some more and some less explicit. But the actual meaning regarding this specific type of hilt as it's used by the English-speaking collectors and some scholars (the term is not used at all in this context in the corresponding Spanish circles, where this type of hilt is also sometimes referred as "boca de caballo", or "horse's mouth"), I'm afraid, it's somewhat modern. Victorian, if you want, just to blame some of the usual suspects...

Anyway, there is no clear cut answer (not exactly surprising, is it?). There's an article addressing this subject somewhere, I remember reading it, though it may be in Spanish. Let me check it and I will come back to you with what I find.

Rivkin · 11th February 2005, 04:56 PM

Thank you very much, my questions have been more than answered.

Thank you, I was just trying to understand if all these variety of blades on the market can be trusted.

wolviex · 11th February 2005, 05:59 PM

Marc wrote about rapiers and broadswords with such hilts, but it seems to me there are also small-swords of very rare type, used in Spain, where characteristic shells at the hilt, used common in Europe, were replaced with cup-hilt, just as we can see at the first picture from Marc.

Marc · 12th February 2005, 12:18 AM

Wolviex
I wonder if you mean the swords with the so called "boat-shell" hilt ("guarnición de barquilla", in Spanish), they are not exactly what one would call smallswords, they are more of a rapier, morphologically speaking, though as they are typical of the 18th century such definition would be somewhat chronologically problematic.

An example of what I'm talking about:

(Images courtesy of Sala Antiguedades)

They normally feature a quote strong blade, and are associated with a military context.
Spain kept rapiers in use when the rest of Europe had already adopted some time ago the smallsword fashion. For civilian use, since the last years of the 17th century, the rapier was slowly being substituted by the smallsword, but the definitive push was given by the introduction of the Bourbon Dynasty on the Spanish Throne in 1700. Even so, one may find some oddities from that time, like rapier blades with smallsword hilts... and these "boat-shell" hilt swords that seem to had been use for the most part of the 18th century.
This type of hilt, must be said, was used in smallswords, also, with some variations that tended to more delicate lines.
See for example:

(Image courtesy of Armas Don Diego)

I wonder if I'm stretching the "Ethnographic" term, here...

Rick · 12th February 2005, 12:39 AM

" I wonder if I'm stretching the "Ethnographic" term, here... "

Not at all Marc .
Not at all .

Jim McDougall · 12th February 2005, 03:24 AM

Hi Marc,
You're right! It has been a long time since we talked

I'm glad you're still around and especially when you come out of 'lurking'!! You always have a lot to say and as you know, I've always been very admiring of your expertise on Spanish swords. I really do appreciate you addressing the 'bilbo' question as well as noting detail on these other patterns, and the pictures !! beautiful!!!

Seconding Rick's comments, outstanding Marc!

All the best,
Jim

wolviex · 12th February 2005, 09:14 AM

Thank you Marc, this one from Armas don Diego is just what I thought about

Marc · 12th February 2005, 11:19 PM

Thank you for your forgiveness and for the kind words, gentlemen. It's SO much what I've learnt in these fora over the years that contributing with what I can is the least I can do... even if, in all honesty, I can't really say anything noteworthy about kerises

Wolviex, just to make you know, the type of hilt you asked about is not what could be called the commonest of all, but is not really strange in Spanish smallswords of that time. In fact, at a later date, there was even, at least, a couple of military patterns with this hilt, for officers of the Halberdiers Corps of the Royal Guard (patterns 1848 and 1875).

8th February 2005, 06:44 PM	#1
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	1796 spanish broadsword - hilt ? Hi, I've seen a surprising big number of 1796 (or so claimed) spanish cavalry broadswords, but all with hilts different from the one that I usually see in catalogues. Is it possible or it's a scam ? Thank you, K.Rivkin

8th February 2005, 11:29 PM	#3
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	I want to echo Jim's questions. Do you mean this one when referring to the one you usally see in the catalogues? Just to see what we're really talking about... Last edited by Marc; 8th February 2005 at 11:40 PM.

11th February 2005, 05:59 PM	#9
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Small-swords Marc wrote about rapiers and broadswords with such hilts, but it seems to me there are also small-swords of very rare type, used in Spain, where characteristic shells at the hilt, used common in Europe, were replaced with cup-hilt, just as we can see at the first picture from Marc.

8th February 2005, 07:38 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Rivkin, Not sure what you're referring to...is there a picture of the type you're alluding to? There are a number of Spanish 'cavalry' swords I believe made by repro companies, but those are quite obvious.Can you possibly be a bit more specific? Jim

9th February 2005, 12:13 AM	#4
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Thank you very much - yes, that's the one. I've seen so many of them with the same guard and blade, but the hilt itself would have a different shape - for example it would contain extra rings below the pommel, or it would be conical, or it would simply be a tube with a pommel...

9th February 2005, 09:38 AM	#5
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	Ah, you mean the grip/handle... yes, there's indeed some variation, though the one in the above picture, barrel-shaped, copper -bound, and with the four longitudinal iron ribs is the most characteristic. You're going to find the same variety of handles in the Spanish Cavalry broadsword M1728 (with a hilt of the so-called "bilbo" type). Officers and special corps (like the Royal Guard) kind of "personalized" their weapons, sometimes, so you can find things like etchings in the guard or alternative handles (some I've seen, cylindrical and silver-bound with turk's heads comes to mind, for example). Not to mention much later "restorations" and ... well, "improvements". I wonder if I answered your question or not... Marc

9th February 2005, 11:53 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Hi Marc, Outstanding! I'm glad you came in on this as I had hoped. Your perception was right on target in thinking of this particular form, which as you note is often termed 'bilbo'. With your knowledge on Spanish swords, I wonder if you could give your take on the origin of this term, which seems rather speculative in some references which suggest the city of Bilbao as possibly the derivation. Best regards, Jim

10th February 2005, 10:34 AM	#7
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	Hi, Jim. Long time no talk... I'm always lurking around here. I'm not sure I'm following you, but just to clarify things for those who can be reading this... the above picture corresponds to the so-called Spanish Pattern 1796 (or M1796) for cavalry. The dating for this pattern is somewhat controversial, though, but this style of sword is still broadly known under this name, so let's stick to it for now on behalf of clarity... The "bilbo" (making reference to the Basque city of Bilbao) label is given to a form of hilt typical for Spanish swords, featuring both rapier and "broadsword" blades, with a double shell, that is around since mid-17h c. It became even more widely known when this type of hilt, with minor variations, was used for the Spanish Pattern M1728 Cavalry broadsword, officially in use for the most part of the 18th century. Pics courtesy of Liongate Arms and Armour: Back to you, Jim, I'm afraid the term "Bilbo" is one of those that has changed its meaning through time. For example, I'm aware that there's a mention of it in one of Shakespeare's plays ("Much ado About Nothing", I think, but I'm not sure...), but it necessarily meant something different at that time. There has been references to swords called "bilbo" since them, some more and some less explicit. But the actual meaning regarding this specific type of hilt as it's used by the English-speaking collectors and some scholars (the term is not used at all in this context in the corresponding Spanish circles, where this type of hilt is also sometimes referred as "boca de caballo", or "horse's mouth"), I'm afraid, it's somewhat modern. Victorian, if you want, just to blame some of the usual suspects... Anyway, there is no clear cut answer (not exactly surprising, is it?). There's an article addressing this subject somewhere, I remember reading it, though it may be in Spanish. Let me check it and I will come back to you with what I find.

11th February 2005, 04:56 PM	#8
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Thank you very much, my questions have been more than answered. Thank you, I was just trying to understand if all these variety of blades on the market can be trusted.

12th February 2005, 12:18 AM	#10
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	Wolviex I wonder if you mean the swords with the so called "boat-shell" hilt ("guarnición de barquilla", in Spanish), they are not exactly what one would call smallswords, they are more of a rapier, morphologically speaking, though as they are typical of the 18th century such definition would be somewhat chronologically problematic. An example of what I'm talking about: (Images courtesy of Sala Antiguedades) They normally feature a quote strong blade, and are associated with a military context. Spain kept rapiers in use when the rest of Europe had already adopted some time ago the smallsword fashion. For civilian use, since the last years of the 17th century, the rapier was slowly being substituted by the smallsword, but the definitive push was given by the introduction of the Bourbon Dynasty on the Spanish Throne in 1700. Even so, one may find some oddities from that time, like rapier blades with smallsword hilts... and these "boat-shell" hilt swords that seem to had been use for the most part of the 18th century. This type of hilt, must be said, was used in smallswords, also, with some variations that tended to more delicate lines. See for example: (Image courtesy of Armas Don Diego) I wonder if I'm stretching the "Ethnographic" term, here...

12th February 2005, 12:39 AM	#11
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	" I wonder if I'm stretching the "Ethnographic" term, here... " Not at all Marc . Not at all .

12th February 2005, 03:24 AM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Hi Marc, You're right! It has been a long time since we talked I'm glad you're still around and especially when you come out of 'lurking'!! You always have a lot to say and as you know, I've always been very admiring of your expertise on Spanish swords. I really do appreciate you addressing the 'bilbo' question as well as noting detail on these other patterns, and the pictures !! beautiful!!! Seconding Rick's comments, outstanding Marc! All the best, Jim

12th February 2005, 09:14 AM	#13
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Thank you Marc, this one from Armas don Diego is just what I thought about

12th February 2005, 11:19 PM	#14
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	Thank you for your forgiveness and for the kind words, gentlemen. It's SO much what I've learnt in these fora over the years that contributing with what I can is the least I can do... even if, in all honesty, I can't really say anything noteworthy about kerises Wolviex, just to make you know, the type of hilt you asked about is not what could be called the commonest of all, but is not really strange in Spanish smallswords of that time. In fact, at a later date, there was even, at least, a couple of military patterns with this hilt, for officers of the Halberdiers Corps of the Royal Guard (patterns 1848 and 1875).