Minang Keris with mixed influences?

VVV · 26th September 2006, 11:24 AM

Hi all,

It's been quite slow on this list for a couple of days and I hope you could help me learn some more about this Keris.
It was collected in Minangkabau but I think it looks like it has influences from Gayo/Aceh as well as Bugis?
The hilt is described as an Indragiri variation in the book Hulu Keris.
What do you think about the origin of this Keris?
And what do you think about the blade?

Michael

More pictures at:
http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php

Alam Shah · 26th September 2006, 03:24 PM

I know little about Sumatran keris. I know even lesser about this keris. But here goes.

I kind of agree with Indragiri opinion of the hilt (Pg:65, Fig:107).

For the sheath, there is quite a gap, when the blade is sheath, which suggests, the blade is not original to the sheath, or vice-versa.

The pendok's buntut looks similar to this piece.
http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php
Wide, flaring with whirls decor. It is however not the same as Gayo style.

A sample of a Gayo keris can be found in Bambang's Ensiklopedi Keris, Pg: 234. Another could be found in Dominique Buttin's website (but without a buntut and a missing hilt cup).

http://old.blades.free.fr/keris/coll...atra/ksm03.htm

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

What do you think about the origin of this Keris?
And what do you think about the blade?

The blade, hmmm... tricky. Could it be a Javanese trade blade, dressed in Sumatran style? The blade design is Dapur Pulanggeni.

Just my thoughts.

Henk · 26th September 2006, 10:30 PM

Michael,

To be honest it looks to me as a composed keris. I love the dress, but the blade doesn't fit the sheath. I think Alam Shah is right that the blade is javanese, not uncommon to find a javanese blade in Sumatra and in a Sumatran dress, but the sheath wasn't made for this kerisblade.

VVV · 26th September 2006, 11:29 PM

Alam Shah,

I am impressed by your humbleness

On the gap I don't think it's that prominent.
When in the sheath it fits tight and doesn't move or "rattle".
But you are correct that there is some small space on the top of the sheath.

On Gayo Keris I think the best source is Sejr Jensen's book.
Obviously Bambang Harsrinuksmo thought so too.

Henk,

Is it the blade you don't think fit the dress or is it because of the pictures of the Keris in the sheath?
Do you have some other reference pictures of Indragiri style Keris and their blades as a comparison?
Indragiri has historical influences from Aceh, Java, Bugis, Portugal, India, Arabic countries, Holland etc.

Michael

drdavid · 27th September 2006, 06:31 AM

Hi VVV
is it just the photos or is the hilt not a good fit in the hilt cup?
DrD

VVV · 27th September 2006, 07:05 AM

Hi DrD,

Now you make me insecure.
But if you compare with the following Keris, the first Panjang in my archive, that has the same kind of Selut it seems to have a similar fit.
Maybe it's because of that I turn the handles in all directions when taking pictures (instead of turning the complete Keris)?
Or maybe none of them fits?
I will take it apart tonight when back home and have a really close look.

Michael

Henk · 27th September 2006, 03:39 PM

Michael,

I'm afraid I have no reference pictures to show you.

I think the keris doesn't fit the dress because you can see on the picture that the blade doesn't fit perfectly in the wrangka. In my opinion the blade was put in this scabbard because the blade was going in and had a reasonable fit. So the sheath was a replacement.

David · 27th September 2006, 03:42 PM

Michael, could you post a photo looking down on the top of the sheath with the keris in it so we can better see the fit. From the photo you provided i would also venture that this sheath wasn't made for this blade. As for the blade origin, My first thought was also that it might be Javanese. Still, if i am not mistaken, you will find many Sumatran blades that look very similar to blades from Jawa as, i believe, parts of Sumatra where once under the influence of the Javanese court and therefore made their keris to Javanese specifications of the time.
BTW, the hilt is beautiful!

VVV · 27th September 2006, 07:34 PM

It's to dark here now for pictures now but having a closer look I agree with you all.
The length of the blade is matching but the opening in the sheath is to big for the Keris.
So I agree that the blade probably isn't the original for the sheath.
I was to excited about the Indragiri hilt and the strange sheath to think about it.

Do you think the hilt and the sheath belong together?
I haven't seen any Indragiri sheaths to compare with myself.

Michael

Henk · 27th September 2006, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Still, if i am not mistaken, you will find many Sumatran blades that look very similar to blades from Jawa as, i believe, parts of Sumatra where once under the influence of the Javanese court and therefore made their keris to Javanese specifications of the time.
BTW, the hilt is beautiful!

As far as I know javanese blades where exported to Sumatra as merchandise because the javanese blades where highly appreciated on Sumatra. It is not unusual to find a javanese blade in a sumatran dress.

David, where did you found that? Or is there one of the more knowledgeable members who can confirm that? It is of course not unlikely that that happened, but I never heard or read about it. And if keris where made to javanese specifications due to influence of the javanese court, why not the dress??

kai · 27th September 2006, 08:20 PM

Hello Henk,

That was on this forum, a few months ago.

If I recall correctly, it was the Palembang sultanate having close ties and some of the keris crafted during this period are quite difficult to tell from their Javanese counterparts...

Regards,
Kai

David · 28th September 2006, 12:15 AM

Thanks Kai, that is as i understand it as well. This was not information that i have read anywhere. It was related to me by a knowledgable member who hopefully will have more substantial information to add to this dicussion.
I can't really say why the Sumatran form of dress didn't follow suit. Perhaps the Palembang sultanate felt that the public part of the keris should reflect the Sumatran identity, while the blade itself, always a symbol of the right of rule, should follow the form of the Javanese court. This is, of course, mere speculation.

A. G. Maisey · 28th September 2006, 01:21 AM

There is no doubt that Javanese blades were exported all over the trade routes of South East Asia, and seemingly, even into the Indian sub-continent.

In The Book of Duarte Barbosa (1500's):- "In these ships the Jaos (ie, Javanese) bring hither great store of rice, beef, sheep,swine, deer, "salt meat",fowls, garlic and onions and also bring for sale many weapons, spears, "daggers", short swords, all finely worked and damascened on fine steel ,also cubebs and a yellow dye called cazuba, and many other small articles."

Barbosa wrote this relevant to trade into the port of Malacca.

Certainly Javanese blades were exported to Sumatra, and many other places , from a very early date, however local production also took place in the areas to which Javanese blades were exported, possibly using the Javanese blades as models.

Sultan Agung (Jawa, 17th century) established relations with the Jambi Sultanate, and Jambi and Mataram were allies. Additionally, during the 17th century there was close intermarriage between the Cirebon and Mataram courts. Cirebon motifs and styles evidence some Chinese influence, which in turn appears in Mataram works, and then in Palembang.

The famous pusaka keris Si Ginjei, of the Jambi Sultanate is a Mataram style keris, supposedly produced by Empu Kinom (Supo Anom), upon the order of Sultan Agung Anyokrokusumo (17th. century Jawa), and given to the Sultan of Jambi as a token of friendship.

I have seen, and I own, other keris from this area which stylistically are Mataram, but with minor differences in pawakan and material which would seem to indicate local manufacture in South Sumatra, rather than in Central Jawa.

My observations seem to indicate that high quality keris from the Palembang area reflect the Javanese style of any particular era, so that Mataram style is reflected in Palembang keris of the Mataram era, and Surakarta style is reflected in Palembang keris of the Surakarta era. I cannot say if this is an overall consistent influence, but instances of it have been observed.

Insufficient research has been carried out in this specific area of keris study to be too definite about the extent of influence exercised by Javanese blade styles upon locally manufactured blades in South Sumatra, however, we can be certain that such influence did exist, just as influence of other blade styles, such as Bugis , exists in the same area.

Incidentally, Jambi, and Palembang were separate entities, but old keris dress from both places is stylistically similar, and I would hestitate to differentiate one from the other.

What we can also be certain of is that nothing is certain, when we start to make guesses about keris.

Henk · 28th September 2006, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

What we can also be certain of is that nothing is certain, when we start to make guesses about keris.

Gentlemen, thanks for the lesson. Alan couldn't say it better with this remark.

A. G. Maisey · 29th September 2006, 12:13 AM

Here are two images of Si Ginjei.

I apologise for the quality, they are scanned images.

This historic keris was supposedly made by Empu Kinom, and is a Mataram Sultan Agung keris.

It was gifted to the Sultan of Jambi, so we can assume the wrongko and handle are representative of old Jambi style.

I have seen old keris attributed to Palembang that had dress so similar to this that I could not distinguish any material difference.

26th September 2006, 11:24 AM	#1
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Minang Keris with mixed influences? Hi all, It's been quite slow on this list for a couple of days and I hope you could help me learn some more about this Keris. It was collected in Minangkabau but I think it looks like it has influences from Gayo/Aceh as well as Bugis? The hilt is described as an Indragiri variation in the book Hulu Keris. What do you think about the origin of this Keris? And what do you think about the blade? Michael More pictures at: http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php Attached Images

29th September 2006, 12:13 AM	#15
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Here are two images of Si Ginjei. I apologise for the quality, they are scanned images. This historic keris was supposedly made by Empu Kinom, and is a Mataram Sultan Agung keris. It was gifted to the Sultan of Jambi, so we can assume the wrongko and handle are representative of old Jambi style. I have seen old keris attributed to Palembang that had dress so similar to this that I could not distinguish any material difference. Attached Images

26th September 2006, 10:30 PM	#3
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Michael, To be honest it looks to me as a composed keris. I love the dress, but the blade doesn't fit the sheath. I think Alam Shah is right that the blade is javanese, not uncommon to find a javanese blade in Sumatra and in a Sumatran dress, but the sheath wasn't made for this kerisblade.

26th September 2006, 11:29 PM	#4
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Alam Shah, I am impressed by your humbleness On the gap I don't think it's that prominent. When in the sheath it fits tight and doesn't move or "rattle". But you are correct that there is some small space on the top of the sheath. On Gayo Keris I think the best source is Sejr Jensen's book. Obviously Bambang Harsrinuksmo thought so too. Henk, Is it the blade you don't think fit the dress or is it because of the pictures of the Keris in the sheath? Do you have some other reference pictures of Indragiri style Keris and their blades as a comparison? Indragiri has historical influences from Aceh, Java, Bugis, Portugal, India, Arabic countries, Holland etc. Michael

27th September 2006, 06:31 AM	#5
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 371	Hi VVV is it just the photos or is the hilt not a good fit in the hilt cup? DrD

27th September 2006, 07:05 AM	#6
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Hi DrD, Now you make me insecure. But if you compare with the following Keris, the first Panjang in my archive, that has the same kind of Selut it seems to have a similar fit. Maybe it's because of that I turn the handles in all directions when taking pictures (instead of turning the complete Keris)? Or maybe none of them fits? I will take it apart tonight when back home and have a really close look. Michael

27th September 2006, 03:39 PM	#7
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Michael, I'm afraid I have no reference pictures to show you. I think the keris doesn't fit the dress because you can see on the picture that the blade doesn't fit perfectly in the wrangka. In my opinion the blade was put in this scabbard because the blade was going in and had a reasonable fit. So the sheath was a replacement.

27th September 2006, 03:42 PM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Michael, could you post a photo looking down on the top of the sheath with the keris in it so we can better see the fit. From the photo you provided i would also venture that this sheath wasn't made for this blade. As for the blade origin, My first thought was also that it might be Javanese. Still, if i am not mistaken, you will find many Sumatran blades that look very similar to blades from Jawa as, i believe, parts of Sumatra where once under the influence of the Javanese court and therefore made their keris to Javanese specifications of the time. BTW, the hilt is beautiful!

27th September 2006, 07:34 PM	#9
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	It's to dark here now for pictures now but having a closer look I agree with you all. The length of the blade is matching but the opening in the sheath is to big for the Keris. So I agree that the blade probably isn't the original for the sheath. I was to excited about the Indragiri hilt and the strange sheath to think about it. Do you think the hilt and the sheath belong together? I haven't seen any Indragiri sheaths to compare with myself. Michael

27th September 2006, 08:20 PM	#11
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Henk, That was on this forum, a few months ago. If I recall correctly, it was the Palembang sultanate having close ties and some of the keris crafted during this period are quite difficult to tell from their Javanese counterparts... Regards, Kai

28th September 2006, 12:15 AM	#12
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Thanks Kai, that is as i understand it as well. This was not information that i have read anywhere. It was related to me by a knowledgable member who hopefully will have more substantial information to add to this dicussion. I can't really say why the Sumatran form of dress didn't follow suit. Perhaps the Palembang sultanate felt that the public part of the keris should reflect the Sumatran identity, while the blade itself, always a symbol of the right of rule, should follow the form of the Javanese court. This is, of course, mere speculation.

28th September 2006, 01:21 AM	#13
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	There is no doubt that Javanese blades were exported all over the trade routes of South East Asia, and seemingly, even into the Indian sub-continent. In The Book of Duarte Barbosa (1500's):- "In these ships the Jaos (ie, Javanese) bring hither great store of rice, beef, sheep,swine, deer, "salt meat",fowls, garlic and onions and also bring for sale many weapons, spears, "daggers", short swords, all finely worked and damascened on fine steel ,also cubebs and a yellow dye called cazuba, and many other small articles." Barbosa wrote this relevant to trade into the port of Malacca. Certainly Javanese blades were exported to Sumatra, and many other places , from a very early date, however local production also took place in the areas to which Javanese blades were exported, possibly using the Javanese blades as models. Sultan Agung (Jawa, 17th century) established relations with the Jambi Sultanate, and Jambi and Mataram were allies. Additionally, during the 17th century there was close intermarriage between the Cirebon and Mataram courts. Cirebon motifs and styles evidence some Chinese influence, which in turn appears in Mataram works, and then in Palembang. The famous pusaka keris Si Ginjei, of the Jambi Sultanate is a Mataram style keris, supposedly produced by Empu Kinom (Supo Anom), upon the order of Sultan Agung Anyokrokusumo (17th. century Jawa), and given to the Sultan of Jambi as a token of friendship. I have seen, and I own, other keris from this area which stylistically are Mataram, but with minor differences in pawakan and material which would seem to indicate local manufacture in South Sumatra, rather than in Central Jawa. My observations seem to indicate that high quality keris from the Palembang area reflect the Javanese style of any particular era, so that Mataram style is reflected in Palembang keris of the Mataram era, and Surakarta style is reflected in Palembang keris of the Surakarta era. I cannot say if this is an overall consistent influence, but instances of it have been observed. Insufficient research has been carried out in this specific area of keris study to be too definite about the extent of influence exercised by Javanese blade styles upon locally manufactured blades in South Sumatra, however, we can be certain that such influence did exist, just as influence of other blade styles, such as Bugis , exists in the same area. Incidentally, Jambi, and Palembang were separate entities, but old keris dress from both places is stylistically similar, and I would hestitate to differentiate one from the other. What we can also be certain of is that nothing is certain, when we start to make guesses about keris.