Nice Old Congo Sword For Comment

Lew · 10th August 2006, 03:10 AM

Hi Guys

I just picked this up at the ebay mall seems to be a very nice old sword is it ngala?

Lew

Freddy · 10th August 2006, 11:42 AM

Nice old piece, Lew.

Do you know this book : Tribal Arms Monographs Vol 1/n°2 (Execution knives & derivatives) by Christian Gosseau (Brussels, 1997). It gives a full account of all the variations within this series of Congolese knives.

I checked it and the author puts your sword in Group 3 produced by the LOBALA, NGABAKA and the BONDJO (name given to part of the NBBAKA people installed on the right bank of the Ubangi, in former French Equatorial Africa).

The name of these double knives is Bango or Bwagogambanza

Further he writes that these knives were used during initiations rites (Gaza) including the circumcision of young men and the excision of young girls. The candidates carry this as a ritual attribute during these ceremonies which take place every six of eight years.

Tim Simmons · 10th August 2006, 11:48 AM

I want one. By the way I do not sit at the computer all day long

I start the day early walking dogs and work from home, it is midmorning tea break now

.

Bill M · 10th August 2006, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy

Nice old piece, Lew.

Do you know this book : Tribal Arms Monographs Vol 1/n°2 (Execution knives & derivatives) by Christian Gosseau (Brussels, 1997). It gives a full account of all the variations within this series of Congolese knives.

Freddy,

Where can I find this book?

Thanks
Bill

Flavio · 10th August 2006, 12:48 PM

A TRUE BEAUTY, Lew!!!! Congrats

Ian · 10th August 2006, 01:05 PM

Bill:

Try De Verre Volken, a bookshop in the Dutch National Museum of Ethnology. The catalog is here:

http://www.ethnographicartbooks.com/...=9045616.42227

They have the book by Gosseau. There are three different books in a set on the sickle swords of Africa (the other two are by different authors). Not very expensive but good information.

Cheers.

Ian.

Mapico1 · 10th August 2006, 05:50 PM

Very old double LOBALA execution sword.Shaped like a human figure,notice the breasts...19th C for sure!Nice one!!Lew.

The Double D · 10th August 2006, 06:25 PM

Any of those books available in English?

Flavio · 10th August 2006, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Double D

Any of those books available in English?

Hello Double D all the three books are in english, french, german and, if i'm correct, dutch

katana · 10th August 2006, 08:15 PM

Congrats Lew, a very nice example.

Mapico, you mentioned that this is symbolic of a human form with breasts, so is it a representation of the female? Are there examples that symbolise the male?

Lew · 23rd August 2006, 06:44 PM

Hi All

The sword arrived today and there is a problem I am facing. It seems that the sword has a weld where that rust line is center of the blade it seems to have been broken in half and repaired it is a good clean tight weld. Does this ruin the sword's value as far as you Congo weapons collectors know? Should I return the sword to the seller?

Lew

katana · 23rd August 2006, 07:01 PM

Hi Lew,
do you think that the repair is 'forge welded', or a modern weld?
Personally, I would feel that the repair detracts from its value. Seems strange how the blade was snapped...I cannot see signs of damage to suggest how it occured.
If the weld is a forged weld, perhaps it occured when first made, or soon after...... if this is the case IMHO then the value is only slightly diminished...... a modern weld.....well I know what I would do.

Tim Simmons · 23rd August 2006, 09:06 PM

Lew, a good close up would be nice. I have to say I do not recall ever seeing repairs as you show us. The fact that rust has formed on the weld suggests a relatively recent job and not forge welded . You have my sympathies with regard to how disappointing such a discovery must be on what would have been a very nice addition to your collection. I think if the seller purports to be at all knowledgeable about such items, and I suspect they do as the photographs did not show the clear join on the other side of the blade. Then you may have grounds for a dispute. Rather you than me. I have had this problem before luckily on an item that I was fortunately able to consider cheap enough to bare. It could so easily be very different and more painful. Thats ebay

Congoblades · 23rd August 2006, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Hi All

The sword arrived today and there is a problem I am facing. It seems that the sword has a weld where that rust line is center of the blade it seems to have been broken in half and repaired it is a good clean tight weld. Does this ruin the sword's value as far as you Congo weapons collectors know? Should I return the sword to the seller?

Lew

It's very nice, but I should return it to the seller. For me it's unacceptable if the seller didn't mensioned this repair

Flavio · 23rd August 2006, 09:35 PM

Lew, it's a shame

!!! Now you have to think first if the price that you have paid is still good for such a repair and second if you are able to find a sword nice as this one, because it's anyway a beautiful piece

!

Luc LEFEBVRE · 23rd August 2006, 10:59 PM

If the weld is well "tribally" done, it's not a problem for me.Look at this one:
http://lulef.free.fr/html/tk_gbaya_4.html
It has a big repair with a piece of metal and that does not ruin the value to my eyes.It's one of my favorite knife in my collection.
Give us some pics of the weld.
Of course it's depend on the price you paid for it...but Flavio is right this kind of piece is rare, and will you be able to find another one ?
Luc

Lew · 24th August 2006, 03:02 AM

Here is the close up of the weld.

Mapico1 · 24th August 2006, 10:16 AM

Hi Lew,
weld is not so bad but the area round the weld is done with acid to hide the weld(intensional for sure)
Luc,
yours is not only repaired but has a handle of an other trowing knife.....a Mbanja handle on a Ngbaka top.Piece of metal was to forge both pieces together and to give support...
Danny

katana · 24th August 2006, 12:11 PM

Hi Lew,
I agree with Mapico, the 'repair' isn't too bad, the use of acid to camoflage the join was surely intentional, unfortunately as the acid has attacked the 'softer' areas of steel and removed the stabilised surface patina, it has created pitting, and encouraged 'new' rust......hence the discoloured 'band' surrounding the weld. Still a nice item, I suppose it 'boils down' to how much it cost, as to whether you seek 'compensation' from the seller......perhaps a reduction in price would be an easier course of action....bearing in mind we are assuming the seller is honest and ethical.

The Double D · 24th August 2006, 05:52 PM

Looks like solder or braze to me, not even a weld and that would explain the acid rust. Not very strong in this application and a real shame.

Send it back!

Tim Simmons · 24th August 2006, 06:26 PM

I would say the two pieces are original, I am sure there is no strict pattern to most Congo knives. It is a good repair but done some time after the original forging. I do not think you payed much for it so maybe you could just keep it untill a better one comes along. What I do not like is what seems an intentional deceit by the seller. Leaving negative feed back is a duel edged sword

, you receiving it when not deserved. If it was a lot of money I would not care about feed back.

ariel · 24th August 2006, 10:03 PM

For me, most if not all Sub-Saharan African swords is a victory of form over function. I just cannot imagine how they could be used effectively, with all those curlicues, outrageous curves, clumsy blades, crude handles and absent points, edges and balance. That's why many of them hang in the museums as forerunners of "abstract" art.

Not that I do not understand people who collect them, but nobody in his right mind would choose one of them as a real weapon....

Luc LEFEBVRE · 24th August 2006, 10:13 PM

No problem for use :

Luc LEFEBVRE · 24th August 2006, 10:15 PM

No problem for use.

Luc

Mapico1 · 24th August 2006, 10:25 PM

Thanks for replying Luc!!!
I couldn't I'm still in chock after ariel's post

Danny

Luc LEFEBVRE · 24th August 2006, 10:31 PM

>Luc,
>yours is not only repaired but has a handle of an other trowing knife.....a >Mbanja handle on a Ngbaka top.Piece of metal was to forge both pieces >together and to give support...

That's why it's exceptional ! Surely an only exemple.

Luc

Lew · 24th August 2006, 11:27 PM

Good news

The seller agreed to cut the price by about half so for that price I can live with it but the bad thing is it must be retired from removing heads

Lew

katana · 24th August 2006, 11:34 PM

Well done Lew .....luckily ....there are ethical people out-there

ariel · 25th August 2006, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mapico1

Thanks for replying Luc!!!
I couldn't I'm still in chock after ariel's post

Danny

Why is it so shocking? Lobbing the head off a sitting and immobilized person can be accomplished with any sharp object (and even not very sharp if long screaming doesn't bother you), especially if a conveniently-placed bent branch tearing his head off is the main component of the act. I am talking about battle use, against an armed, moving and unwilling to be beheaded guy. If you were going to war, would you prefer a Ngombe "beheading" sword or any Middle Eastern, SE Asian , Japanese or European one?
I looked here:
http://www.mambele.be/typology.php
and couldn't find a single one that would fit the bill.
Exotic-looking? Yes. Beautiful? Depends on the taste. Practical? Barely so to resounding "no".
No offence meant. Just practical observation.

Luc LEFEBVRE · 25th August 2006, 12:42 AM

I think I will take a heavy Salampasu sword for hand to hand:
http://lulef.free.fr/html/salampasu.html
with a Ngombe TK to slow down an assault:
http://lulef.free.fr/html/tk_gbaya_5.html
and this shield to protect from arrows and spears:
http://lulef.free.fr/html/b_wandala_0.html

Luc

10th August 2006, 03:10 AM	#1
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Nice Old Congo Sword For Comment Hi Guys I just picked this up at the ebay mall seems to be a very nice old sword is it ngala? Lew Attached Images

23rd August 2006, 06:44 PM	#11
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Hi All The sword arrived today and there is a problem I am facing. It seems that the sword has a weld where that rust line is center of the blade it seems to have been broken in half and repaired it is a good clean tight weld. Does this ruin the sword's value as far as you Congo weapons collectors know? Should I return the sword to the seller? Lew Attached Images

24th August 2006, 03:02 AM	#17
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Here is the close up of the weld. Attached Images

24th August 2006, 10:15 PM	#24
Luc LEFEBVRE Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: France Posts: 473	No problem for use. Luc Attached Images

24th August 2006, 10:31 PM	#26
Luc LEFEBVRE Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: France Posts: 473	>Luc, >yours is not only repaired but has a handle of an other trowing knife.....a >Mbanja handle on a Ngbaka top.Piece of metal was to forge both pieces >together and to give support... That's why it's exceptional ! Surely an only exemple. Luc Attached Images

10th August 2006, 11:42 AM	#2
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	Nice old piece, Lew. Do you know this book : Tribal Arms Monographs Vol 1/n°2 (Execution knives & derivatives) by Christian Gosseau (Brussels, 1997). It gives a full account of all the variations within this series of Congolese knives. I checked it and the author puts your sword in Group 3 produced by the LOBALA, NGABAKA and the BONDJO (name given to part of the NBBAKA people installed on the right bank of the Ubangi, in former French Equatorial Africa). The name of these double knives is Bango or Bwagogambanza Further he writes that these knives were used during initiations rites (Gaza) including the circumcision of young men and the excision of young girls. The candidates carry this as a ritual attribute during these ceremonies which take place every six of eight years.

10th August 2006, 11:48 AM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I want one. By the way I do not sit at the computer all day long I start the day early walking dogs and work from home, it is midmorning tea break now .

10th August 2006, 12:48 PM	#5
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	A TRUE BEAUTY, Lew!!!! Congrats

10th August 2006, 01:05 PM	#6
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,207	Bill: Try De Verre Volken, a bookshop in the Dutch National Museum of Ethnology. The catalog is here: http://www.ethnographicartbooks.com/...=9045616.42227 They have the book by Gosseau. There are three different books in a set on the sickle swords of Africa (the other two are by different authors). Not very expensive but good information. Cheers. Ian.

10th August 2006, 05:50 PM	#7
Mapico1 Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 86	Very old double LOBALA execution sword.Shaped like a human figure,notice the breasts...19th C for sure!Nice one!!Lew.

10th August 2006, 06:25 PM	#8
The Double D Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: On the banks of Cut Bank Creek, Montana Posts: 189	Any of those books available in English?

10th August 2006, 08:15 PM	#10
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Congrats Lew, a very nice example. Mapico, you mentioned that this is symbolic of a human form with breasts, so is it a representation of the female? Are there examples that symbolise the male?

23rd August 2006, 07:01 PM	#12
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Lew, do you think that the repair is 'forge welded', or a modern weld? Personally, I would feel that the repair detracts from its value. Seems strange how the blade was snapped...I cannot see signs of damage to suggest how it occured. If the weld is a forged weld, perhaps it occured when first made, or soon after...... if this is the case IMHO then the value is only slightly diminished...... a modern weld.....well I know what I would do.

23rd August 2006, 09:06 PM	#13
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Lew, a good close up would be nice. I have to say I do not recall ever seeing repairs as you show us. The fact that rust has formed on the weld suggests a relatively recent job and not forge welded . You have my sympathies with regard to how disappointing such a discovery must be on what would have been a very nice addition to your collection. I think if the seller purports to be at all knowledgeable about such items, and I suspect they do as the photographs did not show the clear join on the other side of the blade. Then you may have grounds for a dispute. Rather you than me. I have had this problem before luckily on an item that I was fortunately able to consider cheap enough to bare. It could so easily be very different and more painful. Thats ebay

23rd August 2006, 09:35 PM	#15
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Lew, it's a shame !!! Now you have to think first if the price that you have paid is still good for such a repair and second if you are able to find a sword nice as this one, because it's anyway a beautiful piece !

23rd August 2006, 10:59 PM	#16
Luc LEFEBVRE Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: France Posts: 473	If the weld is well "tribally" done, it's not a problem for me.Look at this one: http://lulef.free.fr/html/tk_gbaya_4.html It has a big repair with a piece of metal and that does not ruin the value to my eyes.It's one of my favorite knife in my collection. Give us some pics of the weld. Of course it's depend on the price you paid for it...but Flavio is right this kind of piece is rare, and will you be able to find another one ? Luc

24th August 2006, 10:16 AM	#18
Mapico1 Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 86	Hi Lew, weld is not so bad but the area round the weld is done with acid to hide the weld(intensional for sure) Luc, yours is not only repaired but has a handle of an other trowing knife.....a Mbanja handle on a Ngbaka top.Piece of metal was to forge both pieces together and to give support... Danny

24th August 2006, 12:11 PM	#19
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Lew, I agree with Mapico, the 'repair' isn't too bad, the use of acid to camoflage the join was surely intentional, unfortunately as the acid has attacked the 'softer' areas of steel and removed the stabilised surface patina, it has created pitting, and encouraged 'new' rust......hence the discoloured 'band' surrounding the weld. Still a nice item, I suppose it 'boils down' to how much it cost, as to whether you seek 'compensation' from the seller......perhaps a reduction in price would be an easier course of action....bearing in mind we are assuming the seller is honest and ethical.

24th August 2006, 05:52 PM	#20
The Double D Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: On the banks of Cut Bank Creek, Montana Posts: 189	Looks like solder or braze to me, not even a weld and that would explain the acid rust. Not very strong in this application and a real shame. Send it back!

24th August 2006, 06:26 PM	#21
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I would say the two pieces are original, I am sure there is no strict pattern to most Congo knives. It is a good repair but done some time after the original forging. I do not think you payed much for it so maybe you could just keep it untill a better one comes along. What I do not like is what seems an intentional deceit by the seller. Leaving negative feed back is a duel edged sword , you receiving it when not deserved. If it was a lot of money I would not care about feed back.

24th August 2006, 10:03 PM	#22
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	For me, most if not all Sub-Saharan African swords is a victory of form over function. I just cannot imagine how they could be used effectively, with all those curlicues, outrageous curves, clumsy blades, crude handles and absent points, edges and balance. That's why many of them hang in the museums as forerunners of "abstract" art. Not that I do not understand people who collect them, but nobody in his right mind would choose one of them as a real weapon....

24th August 2006, 10:13 PM	#23
Luc LEFEBVRE Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: France Posts: 473	No problem for use :

24th August 2006, 10:25 PM	#25
Mapico1 Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 86	Thanks for replying Luc!!! I couldn't I'm still in chock after ariel's post Danny

24th August 2006, 11:27 PM	#27
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Good news The seller agreed to cut the price by about half so for that price I can live with it but the bad thing is it must be retired from removing heads Lew

24th August 2006, 11:34 PM	#28
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Well done Lew .....luckily ....there are ethical people out-there

25th August 2006, 12:42 AM	#30
Luc LEFEBVRE Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: France Posts: 473	I think I will take a heavy Salampasu sword for hand to hand: http://lulef.free.fr/html/salampasu.html with a Ngombe TK to slow down an assault: http://lulef.free.fr/html/tk_gbaya_5.html and this shield to protect from arrows and spears: http://lulef.free.fr/html/b_wandala_0.html Luc