Revolutionary War to Federalist period cutlass

M ELEY · 1st November 2024, 05:50 PM

My newest acquisition from the Shanendoah region of Virginia not too far from the Chesapeake Bay. Here we have an excellent representation of a primitive American-made cutlass which I'm estimating from 1780-1810 era. It is a blacksmith product, of course, ersatz-constructed probably in a small quantity for a naval or merchant/privateer vessel. The blade is a brute! measuring 28" long (typical of cutlass/hangers of this time versus the much longer horseman's sabers) and nearly a fourth of an inch thick! Definately the heaviest sword I've ever owned and the blade unfullered (again typical of American swords of this early period). The point is a classic clip, a fassionable thing with cutlasses. I'm thinking it might have started out life as a massive horseman's blade purposely cut down to this point (I truly can't imagine how heavy it would have been in its original full length!

The blade is cantered sharply to the hilt, a design I'm assuming was believed to help in the swing/impact of such a weapon. The blade is still very sharp and with it's weight, it could easily sever a limb! Cantered blades became much more prominant in the early 19th century, with Nathan Starr's naval model and the Virginia Manufactuary swords ca. 1808, but there are clear examples of earlier Rev War period types with cantering to the blades.

The grip is a plain wood core pattern with great patina and some worming. This handle is original to the piece in its remaking, as the peened tang at the end of the primitive sheet iron knuckle bow looks period with old patina.

For comparison types, please refer to George Neumann's 'Swords and Blades of the American Revolution". 68S primitive guard with sheet knuckle bow. 72S American hanger with thick unfullered blade and slight clip point. 77S another primitive type with single bar guard, rounded core wood grip. 79S simple flat stirrup sheet metal guard with slight cantering. 94S European example with clipped point to emphasize the popularity of this emerging style.149S Another clipped point English version, 172S a squared iron counterguard/knuckle bow, 188S simple flat bent metal knuckle bow with cantered blade. 191S A great cantered blade example with sheet knuckle bow. 304 and 305S both cutlass-types with no fullers, sheet knuckle bows. Note the second example's thick blade! 309S No fullers and very cantered. 315S also no fullers, cantered blade and with a clipped point. Finally, we have 374/375/380/381 all cutlasses of the era with the sheet iron guards, short quillon and no fullers. 368S This example has the nearly identical wood core grip as mine.

M ELEY · 1st November 2024, 06:10 PM

Some might call these essatz types 'uglu ducklings', but I love them. Plus, I think it is monumentally important to consider when it is appropriate for an authentic item to be piece-meal made. If I found a sword with a ca. 1850 Mexican blade with a M1903 Patton guard, a Mason's sword grip, and a m1860 Staff & Field officer's sword pommel, I'd stay away! These put-together essatz types are still great wall ahngers, but have no narrative in the weapons/military world.

The exceptions are in areas of history where desparation and lack of resources led individuals to find ways to make appropriate weapons. These periods of history include the colonists during the American Revolution (who either had to use a much earlier pre-war type, steal one off of the enemy or have one made by a local blacksmith). Other ersatz wepons can be seen in colonial Spanish regions and encompass the so-called espadas (Jim McDougall, that's your que!

. Actually, Jim and I have discussed this present sword I'm posting indepth). Likewise, the Confederate States were also in a tight situation in regards to armament and many had to rely on primative examples 'made in the barn'.

Atop of all this, where there was scarcity of weapons and manufacture of local items, we have the navy and merchant class to consider! With these folks, there began a new definition of "primative"! Unlike a field regiment or platoon of foot soldiers, ships usually only required small batches of swords for either defence or privateering/boarding. Likewise, the naval powers were the last branch of the armed forces to start developing accepted patterns/models for their weaponry. Many had the attitude that the maritime types were not commonly used except in the rare instances of boarding, so why not make them as 'munitions-grade' as possible. Thus, we get these plain Jane types that are still so amazing as they are small-batch and no two are exactly alike!

M ELEY · 1st November 2024, 06:17 PM

I guess what I'm saying is, these types are not to everyone's taste and I get that. As a collector of maritime items, though. these really speak to me. They are not shiny and clean. No officer or captain probably handled them. They are simple tools of war probably stored in barrels rolled up onto the deck during raids or defence or perhaps stored in a rack. They are cumbersome, deadly and I wouldn't want to get struck in the skull with one, that's for sure!

Here's a site with a few examples of American Revolutionary War types of colonial manufacture. They are almost folk-art in a way!

https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/...?auctionid=560

Jim McDougall · 1st November 2024, 11:39 PM

Capn, thank you for posting this remarkable example of the very kinds on weapons which actually SAW use in colonial, rural and as noted often maritime contexts. They were indeed typically 'ersatz' forms made in the manner of other contemporary forms, but with local blacksmiths and iron workers fabricating them in their own perspectives.

The stark clipped point I have seen referred to as 'inverted clip' and while often seen on machetes (many Caribbean forms) they seem to have been adopted from the exotic forms of swords termed colorfully 'scimitars'.

As you note, the canted hilt feature seems like it may have been intended to direct force of slashing or chopping cut, which was notably reasonable for a machete.....here noting that the machete was often a weapon as well as tool.

It would be great to see other examples of these types of sword, which are in my view, in accord with the Capn, anything BUT 'ugly ducklings'....they are very much folk art reflecting the resilience and rugged character of those who used them.

Page from Burton 1884 reflecting the types of swords whose influence off trade vessels might have influenced the profiling of this blade.

PS.....that display grouping is MUSEUM grade!
'

M ELEY · 2nd November 2024, 04:08 AM

Thanks for coming in on this one, Jim. I know we talked at length about this sword and others with the clipped point. Gilkerson includes in his 'Boarders Away I: With Steel' the so-called Baltimore pattern of cutlass from the first decade of the 19th with such a clipped point.

You also brought up the cantering of the blade on some of these. I've always wondered if it were for the chopping effect and, as you pointed out, machetes often have this feature.

And thanks for the compliment about the display!

kronckew · 3rd November 2024, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

PS.....that display grouping is MUSEUM grade!
'

145: hinese: Chinese whotsit?

146: Turkish 'scimitar' - They did not use anything like that, in spite of Indiana Jones. Renaissance painters assumed Christians used curved swords like that. They didn't. European falchions sometimes did tho.

147: Dao - Actually a nepali 'Kora', sharp on the inside of the curve.

148: Sailor's Cutlass: What they heck is that?

19c Museums & authors were not the most accurate entities.

M ELEY · 3rd November 2024, 02:31 AM

Yeah. Wayne, you don't recognize that classic 'sailor's cutlass'? I think they used them in 'Water World'

Jim's point was (dismissing the titles from that page) that the clipped point was certainly fashionable in Europe and Asia long before here in the colonies. Naval weapons did have a history of following fashion also, with many of the naval dirks and swords of the Quasi-War period and Napoleonic period taking on Arabic/Egyptian forms after Bonaparte's Egyptian Campaign . Likewise, the early U.S. Marine swords took on the shamshir pattern after the Barbary Wars. I'm happy to have a clipped point in the collection now!

kronckew · 3rd November 2024, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Yeah. Wayne, you don't recognize that classic 'sailor's cutlass'? I think they used them in 'Water World'

...

mY Favourite 'cutlass' is the Dutch klewang, used originally to arm native police in Dutch East Indies for jungle use where European swords/sabres were too long.

It was used extensively in WW2 as a 'Naval Cutlass' by the Germans, and the Americans, copied directly and exactly from the original Dutch Hembrug made ones. Mine has a Solingen blade and was supposedly liberated from a German S-Boot by a Brit in an E-Boat. They have clip point too!

Even the Japanese used captured ones, guards cut down and blades shortened, known now as Hei-ho.

The last recorded use of the US Naval boarding cutlass was during the Altmark Incident on February 16, 1940

M ELEY · Yesterday, 12:32 AM

Yes! There's the clip point so popular on these cutlass types. Indeed, the Dutch klewang, modeled after it's Indonesian namesake, is a perfect example of how both Eastern and Asian patterns had an effect on European/American edged weapons. Nice sword, my friend!

Jim McDougall · Yesterday, 03:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

145: hinese: Chinese whotsit?

146: Turkish 'scimitar' - They did not use anything like that, in spite of Indiana Jones. Renaissance painters assumed Christians used curved swords like that. They didn't. European falchions sometimes did tho.

147: Dao - Actually a nepali 'Kora', sharp on the inside of the curve.

148: Sailor's Cutlass: What they heck is that?

OH NO!!! you mean Burtons book is not Gospel!!!!
and all the Victorian romantics describing flashing SCIMITARS are wrong?

LOL!

19c Museums & authors were not the most accurate entities.

What? museums and authors make missteaks?????

The point was, this type of rebated blade WAS around in those times, and sailors and travelers in and out of exotic ports were known to acquire souvenirs, and were not exactly arms 'scholars'. There was also the case where weapons from many places were in use in non indigenous contexts, so assumptions sometimes happened.

I could write a book on these kinds of gaffes, and I've always particularly loved the term 'scimitar'......used in 'authoritative' description of Eastern sabers (?).

M ELEY · Yesterday, 03:19 PM

Hey, I think I figured out what we are looking at in that museum chart. Post # 4, Figure 148, the 'sailor's sword', is hinged. This was probably a sketch of a very large navaja 'knife', controversially believed to be carried by sailors and thus misidentified as a sailor's sword. I've had whole threads I've started and argued about concerning sailors carrying jack knives, but I won't digress right now (I just bought my first navaja and will post it soon with all the arguments pro and nay for sea use!

. Of course, it could be something else...

Jim McDougall · Yesterday, 09:44 PM

You have an amazing eye Capn! I hadnt noticed that! Indeed a navaja is quite possible though I had not seen them with the clipped blade. However the name I believe means razor, which was a folding blade item.
These kept getting larger until they became the size of dirks and even larger. With the ratchet lock on the blade, they went from pocket knife to short sword/dirk instantly.
Colloquially known as 'carracha' for the click of the ratchet lock, they were the 'baratero weapon', sailors knife fighting weapon.
Part of New Orleans French Quarter, the lair of pirate Jean Lafitte was known as Barateria.

M ELEY · Today, 02:12 AM

Thank you for this information, Jim. I know we had a very long and contested thread I started back in 2012 concerning folding knives at sea. As I recall, we were split down the middle. I, for one, still believe smaller folding knives did see service perhaps on merchant ships and undoubtedly privateer/pirate vessels. I plan on posting my new 'little folder' soon. I just think there is way too much references and incidences involving such items, including 'baratero' weapons (gotta love good ole Jean Lafitte!).

1st November 2024, 05:50 PM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Revolutionary War to Federalist period cutlass My newest acquisition from the Shanendoah region of Virginia not too far from the Chesapeake Bay. Here we have an excellent representation of a primitive American-made cutlass which I'm estimating from 1780-1810 era. It is a blacksmith product, of course, ersatz-constructed probably in a small quantity for a naval or merchant/privateer vessel. The blade is a brute! measuring 28" long (typical of cutlass/hangers of this time versus the much longer horseman's sabers) and nearly a fourth of an inch thick! Definately the heaviest sword I've ever owned and the blade unfullered (again typical of American swords of this early period). The point is a classic clip, a fassionable thing with cutlasses. I'm thinking it might have started out life as a massive horseman's blade purposely cut down to this point (I truly can't imagine how heavy it would have been in its original full length! The blade is cantered sharply to the hilt, a design I'm assuming was believed to help in the swing/impact of such a weapon. The blade is still very sharp and with it's weight, it could easily sever a limb! Cantered blades became much more prominant in the early 19th century, with Nathan Starr's naval model and the Virginia Manufactuary swords ca. 1808, but there are clear examples of earlier Rev War period types with cantering to the blades. The grip is a plain wood core pattern with great patina and some worming. This handle is original to the piece in its remaking, as the peened tang at the end of the primitive sheet iron knuckle bow looks period with old patina. For comparison types, please refer to George Neumann's 'Swords and Blades of the American Revolution". 68S primitive guard with sheet knuckle bow. 72S American hanger with thick unfullered blade and slight clip point. 77S another primitive type with single bar guard, rounded core wood grip. 79S simple flat stirrup sheet metal guard with slight cantering. 94S European example with clipped point to emphasize the popularity of this emerging style.149S Another clipped point English version, 172S a squared iron counterguard/knuckle bow, 188S simple flat bent metal knuckle bow with cantered blade. 191S A great cantered blade example with sheet knuckle bow. 304 and 305S both cutlass-types with no fullers, sheet knuckle bows. Note the second example's thick blade! 309S No fullers and very cantered. 315S also no fullers, cantered blade and with a clipped point. Finally, we have 374/375/380/381 all cutlasses of the era with the sheet iron guards, short quillon and no fullers. 368S This example has the nearly identical wood core grip as mine. Attached Images

1st November 2024, 06:10 PM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Cutlass continued Some might call these essatz types 'uglu ducklings', but I love them. Plus, I think it is monumentally important to consider when it is appropriate for an authentic item to be piece-meal made. If I found a sword with a ca. 1850 Mexican blade with a M1903 Patton guard, a Mason's sword grip, and a m1860 Staff & Field officer's sword pommel, I'd stay away! These put-together essatz types are still great wall ahngers, but have no narrative in the weapons/military world. The exceptions are in areas of history where desparation and lack of resources led individuals to find ways to make appropriate weapons. These periods of history include the colonists during the American Revolution (who either had to use a much earlier pre-war type, steal one off of the enemy or have one made by a local blacksmith). Other ersatz wepons can be seen in colonial Spanish regions and encompass the so-called espadas (Jim McDougall, that's your que!. Actually, Jim and I have discussed this present sword I'm posting indepth). Likewise, the Confederate States were also in a tight situation in regards to armament and many had to rely on primative examples 'made in the barn'. Atop of all this, where there was scarcity of weapons and manufacture of local items, we have the navy and merchant class to consider! With these folks, there began a new definition of "primative"! Unlike a field regiment or platoon of foot soldiers, ships usually only required small batches of swords for either defence or privateering/boarding. Likewise, the naval powers were the last branch of the armed forces to start developing accepted patterns/models for their weaponry. Many had the attitude that the maritime types were not commonly used except in the rare instances of boarding, so why not make them as 'munitions-grade' as possible. Thus, we get these plain Jane types that are still so amazing as they are small-batch and no two are exactly alike! Attached Images

1st November 2024, 06:17 PM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	More photos... I guess what I'm saying is, these types are not to everyone's taste and I get that. As a collector of maritime items, though. these really speak to me. They are not shiny and clean. No officer or captain probably handled them. They are simple tools of war probably stored in barrels rolled up onto the deck during raids or defence or perhaps stored in a rack. They are cumbersome, deadly and I wouldn't want to get struck in the skull with one, that's for sure! Here's a site with a few examples of American Revolutionary War types of colonial manufacture. They are almost folk-art in a way! https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/...?auctionid=560 Attached Images

1st November 2024, 11:39 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Capn, thank you for posting this remarkable example of the very kinds on weapons which actually SAW use in colonial, rural and as noted often maritime contexts. They were indeed typically 'ersatz' forms made in the manner of other contemporary forms, but with local blacksmiths and iron workers fabricating them in their own perspectives. The stark clipped point I have seen referred to as 'inverted clip' and while often seen on machetes (many Caribbean forms) they seem to have been adopted from the exotic forms of swords termed colorfully 'scimitars'. As you note, the canted hilt feature seems like it may have been intended to direct force of slashing or chopping cut, which was notably reasonable for a machete.....here noting that the machete was often a weapon as well as tool. It would be great to see other examples of these types of sword, which are in my view, in accord with the Capn, anything BUT 'ugly ducklings'....they are very much folk art reflecting the resilience and rugged character of those who used them. Page from Burton 1884 reflecting the types of swords whose influence off trade vessels might have influenced the profiling of this blade. PS.....that display grouping is MUSEUM grade! ' Attached Images

3rd November 2024, 02:31 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Clipped points... Yeah. Wayne, you don't recognize that classic 'sailor's cutlass'? I think they used them in 'Water World' Jim's point was (dismissing the titles from that page) that the clipped point was certainly fashionable in Europe and Asia long before here in the colonies. Naval weapons did have a history of following fashion also, with many of the naval dirks and swords of the Quasi-War period and Napoleonic period taking on Arabic/Egyptian forms after Bonaparte's Egyptian Campaign . Likewise, the early U.S. Marine swords took on the shamshir pattern after the Barbary Wars. I'm happy to have a clipped point in the collection now!

2nd November 2024, 04:08 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Thanks for coming in on this one, Jim. I know we talked at length about this sword and others with the clipped point. Gilkerson includes in his 'Boarders Away I: With Steel' the so-called Baltimore pattern of cutlass from the first decade of the 19th with such a clipped point. You also brought up the cantering of the blade on some of these. I've always wondered if it were for the chopping effect and, as you pointed out, machetes often have this feature. And thanks for the compliment about the display!

Yesterday, 12:32 AM	#9
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Yes! There's the clip point so popular on these cutlass types. Indeed, the Dutch klewang, modeled after it's Indonesian namesake, is a perfect example of how both Eastern and Asian patterns had an effect on European/American edged weapons. Nice sword, my friend!

Yesterday, 03:19 PM	#11
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Hey, I think I figured out what we are looking at in that museum chart. Post # 4, Figure 148, the 'sailor's sword', is hinged. This was probably a sketch of a very large navaja 'knife', controversially believed to be carried by sailors and thus misidentified as a sailor's sword. I've had whole threads I've started and argued about concerning sailors carrying jack knives, but I won't digress right now (I just bought my first navaja and will post it soon with all the arguments pro and nay for sea use!. Of course, it could be something else...

Yesterday, 09:44 PM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	You have an amazing eye Capn! I hadnt noticed that! Indeed a navaja is quite possible though I had not seen them with the clipped blade. However the name I believe means razor, which was a folding blade item. These kept getting larger until they became the size of dirks and even larger. With the ratchet lock on the blade, they went from pocket knife to short sword/dirk instantly. Colloquially known as 'carracha' for the click of the ratchet lock, they were the 'baratero weapon', sailors knife fighting weapon. Part of New Orleans French Quarter, the lair of pirate Jean Lafitte was known as Barateria.

Today, 02:12 AM	#13
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Thank you for this information, Jim. I know we had a very long and contested thread I started back in 2012 concerning folding knives at sea. As I recall, we were split down the middle. I, for one, still believe smaller folding knives did see service perhaps on merchant ships and undoubtedly privateer/pirate vessels. I plan on posting my new 'little folder' soon. I just think there is way too much references and incidences involving such items, including 'baratero' weapons (gotta love good ole Jean Lafitte!).