Running wolf on Timor sword

Sajen · 29th October 2024, 08:41 PM

Hi Jeff,

Now you have two different opinions!

I guess that you will know more by cleaning the blade, when it's a local blade you will have an easy job, when it's indeed a Solingen blade you will have a hard job!

Regards,
Detlef

Jim McDougall · 29th October 2024, 10:34 PM

IMO this is NOT a local blade, but as I noted either Solingen or a German maker situated in Netherlands made it. Local makers would not have reproduced either the wolf nor especially the date (the numerals are following the exact character of Solingen examples).

What is interesting is whether or not the blade form was intended for trade in the manner of many blades in the 19th c. which were destined for colonial markets i.e. takouba and kaskara North Africa; Spanish motto blades for the Americas.

These kinds of situations were one factor of creating the European Armoury as the use of European blades in ethnographic weapons was commonplace. The work by Briggs (1965) on European blades in Tuareg weapons is a most valuable work on European blade markings.

Fascinating example! Thank you for posting!

JeffS · 31st October 2024, 07:27 AM

Thank you for the comments. Here are some better pictures. I'm still working on the rust. The 4 stamp is only partially visible. On the reverse the date is in the same orientation as the wolf, the 4 is missing and the 8 poorly struck with the partial number offset significantly to the right. There is a pit in the general area of the 4 which could have been the location of a partial numeral. I do not know what to look for regarding evidence of modification of the tip. The distal taper narrows evenly, 2.3mm where the fuller ends and 1mm at tip. If modified, I don't think it was significantly shortened. The blade has nice flex and, though corroded, has better grain and is far more homogenous than a Timor group VOC example I have pictured at bottom. The date stamp is similar in year and style as the VOC example.
There is much discussion on the running wolf stamp, but this appears to be the first SE Asian example on the forum. From the discussion I've skimmed, the Passau wolf chop was mostly discontinued in 17C, however this blade is dated 18C. The mark most resembles the 16C example third up on right of the diagram Jim provided but I don't think we can read too deeply into the subtle distinctions of these later chop marks as dating clues. Could the blade be significantly older than the date stamp?

31st October 2024, 07:27 AM	#3
JeffS Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 343	Thank you for the comments. Here are some better pictures. I'm still working on the rust. The 4 stamp is only partially visible. On the reverse the date is in the same orientation as the wolf, the 4 is missing and the 8 poorly struck with the partial number offset significantly to the right. There is a pit in the general area of the 4 which could have been the location of a partial numeral. I do not know what to look for regarding evidence of modification of the tip. The distal taper narrows evenly, 2.3mm where the fuller ends and 1mm at tip. If modified, I don't think it was significantly shortened. The blade has nice flex and, though corroded, has better grain and is far more homogenous than a Timor group VOC example I have pictured at bottom. The date stamp is similar in year and style as the VOC example. There is much discussion on the running wolf stamp, but this appears to be the first SE Asian example on the forum. From the discussion I've skimmed, the Passau wolf chop was mostly discontinued in 17C, however this blade is dated 18C. The mark most resembles the 16C example third up on right of the diagram Jim provided but I don't think we can read too deeply into the subtle distinctions of these later chop marks as dating clues. Could the blade be significantly older than the date stamp? Attached Images

29th October 2024, 08:41 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,779	Hi Jeff, Now you have two different opinions! I guess that you will know more by cleaning the blade, when it's a local blade you will have an easy job, when it's indeed a Solingen blade you will have a hard job! Regards, Detlef

29th October 2024, 10:34 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	IMO this is NOT a local blade, but as I noted either Solingen or a German maker situated in Netherlands made it. Local makers would not have reproduced either the wolf nor especially the date (the numerals are following the exact character of Solingen examples). What is interesting is whether or not the blade form was intended for trade in the manner of many blades in the 19th c. which were destined for colonial markets i.e. takouba and kaskara North Africa; Spanish motto blades for the Americas. These kinds of situations were one factor of creating the European Armoury as the use of European blades in ethnographic weapons was commonplace. The work by Briggs (1965) on European blades in Tuareg weapons is a most valuable work on European blade markings. Fascinating example! Thank you for posting!