Glasgow Hilt?

Norman McCormick · 2nd October 2024, 07:23 PM

Hi Rachelle,
As Jim has pointed out the second basket hilt sword conforms to the P1828 Scottish officers regulation pattern. The button at the bottom of the scabbard is standard for scabbards of this pattern. A look at the blade should give more information as it may have all, some or none of the following, a proof slug which may point towards a particular maker, a makers name and possibly address, a regnal cipher i.e VR, ER VIII etc., or least likely a regimental name or insignia. Hope this is of some assistance.
Regards,
Norman.

Rachelle.Slattery · 8th October 2024, 01:11 AM

Thanks for that Norman. I have attached a few photos of the p1828 hilt and blade. It appears to be from Queen Victoria era, with acid etched motif and I believe the maker/s were Widdowson and Veale of London.

Jim McDougall · 8th October 2024, 05:21 PM

Thank you Rachelle for adding this. From what I can find, William Widdowson & Robert Veale worked at 73 Strand in London from 1835-1876. After that the firm merged, Widdowson had passed in 1872.

Widdowson was apparently a very high station silversmith who had taken over the business from John Salter who was close friends with Admiral Nelsons granddaughter Horatia. She had him as jeweler and silversmith in various commissions to Nelson.
This undoubtedly led to Widdowson becoming appointed silversmith to Prince Albert, and as noted a highly appointed artisan who not only worked with design items of precious metals, but also made orders and decorations for the British army and navy. He also worked with the Royal Court in Spain.

The VR cypher indicates of course the blade, and by virtue of its being commissioned privately suggests the blade and hilt are homogenous. It appears that Widdowson also fashioned hilts, and in this case followed the well established 1828 Scottish pattern (often regarded as 1835).

As Queen Victoria began her reign in 1837, and married Prince Albert in 1840, that may be regarded as earliest date for this sword. The end date would be 1876 as noted earlier with the name of this firm ending that year.

Without regimental markings or personal inscription it is hard to establish which unit of the British army this basket hilt might belong to. The regiments known to have had these 1828 style hilts for officers were;
Royal Scots Fusiliers; Highland Light Infantry; Seaforth Highlanders; Cameron Highlanders; Kings Own Scottish Borderers; Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders; and of course the Black Watch (42nd).

Possibly the motto inscribed might be a clue if it can be attributed to one of these units specifically.

It would seem it must have been to a very distinguished officer with one of these also highly distinguished regiments as it was a sword produced by such a high end cutler. If he had the sword made for himself personally it is unlikely he would have placed his own name, as this was typically reserved for swords being presented to someone. Similarly, it would not be necessary to place regimental name, but to add a significant motto would be.

Just my own views from researching this beautiful basket hilt, and as always I would like to hear other comments.

Rachelle.Slattery · 10th October 2024, 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Without regimental markings or personal inscription it is hard to establish which unit of the British army this basket hilt might belong to. The regiments known to have had these 1828 style hilts for officers were;
Royal Scots Fusiliers; Highland Light Infantry; Seaforth Highlanders; Cameron Highlanders; Kings Own Scottish Borderers; Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders; and of course the Black Watch (42nd).

Possibly the motto inscribed might be a clue if it can be attributed to one of these units specifically.

Thanks Jim, this is quite insightful. I would love to hear if anyone is able to shed more light specifically on the motto (God with us). I have spent a good few hours looking for a regiment during that time period (1837 - 1860) using the motto, it does not appear to belong to any of the above mentioned regiments. The closest I did come was the Fletcher clan motto "God for us".

Bryce · 11th October 2024, 02:09 AM

G'day Rachelle,
I think it is very likely that the coat of arms on the blade belong to the owner of the sword. Often (but not always), there will be a set of initials as well. If you can post some better photos of the coat of arms and the other blade decoration as well, we may be able to identify the owner. Unfortunately, even with a coat of arms, it isn't always possible to identify the owner. Sometimes it is difficult to identify what the various elements on a coat of arms are. For example this crest below is actually a wolf. If I hadn't have been able to identify the owner by other means I would have been none the wiser.
Cheers,
Bryce

Rachelle.Slattery · 11th October 2024, 07:09 AM

Thanks Bryce. I think a wolf is definitely a possibility. I will endeavour to try and get some better pictures of the 1828 blade motif over the weekend. The motto is definitely leading me to dead ends as it is actually the prussian motto, but in English.

Rachelle.Slattery · 18th October 2024, 05:18 AM

Unfortunately, this is the best I am able to get the image of the crest and motto. I have had no luck trying to link the motto to any of the regiments during Queen Victoria's reign. I'm wondering if rather than it being made specifically for a regiment it may have been purchased by an individual and they ordered it with their own "motto"? Was that something people did in the 19th century?
Maybe I'm just going to have to be satisfied with being able to place it within a short time period and not knowing anything further about it.

8th October 2024, 01:11 AM	#2
Rachelle.Slattery Member Join Date: Sep 2024 Posts: 8	P1828 basket hilt Thanks for that Norman. I have attached a few photos of the p1828 hilt and blade. It appears to be from Queen Victoria era, with acid etched motif and I believe the maker/s were Widdowson and Veale of London. Attached Images

11th October 2024, 02:09 AM	#5
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 186	G'day Rachelle, I think it is very likely that the coat of arms on the blade belong to the owner of the sword. Often (but not always), there will be a set of initials as well. If you can post some better photos of the coat of arms and the other blade decoration as well, we may be able to identify the owner. Unfortunately, even with a coat of arms, it isn't always possible to identify the owner. Sometimes it is difficult to identify what the various elements on a coat of arms are. For example this crest below is actually a wolf. If I hadn't have been able to identify the owner by other means I would have been none the wiser. Cheers, Bryce Attached Images

18th October 2024, 05:18 AM	#7
Rachelle.Slattery Member Join Date: Sep 2024 Posts: 8	Unfortunately, this is the best I am able to get the image of the crest and motto. I have had no luck trying to link the motto to any of the regiments during Queen Victoria's reign. I'm wondering if rather than it being made specifically for a regiment it may have been purchased by an individual and they ordered it with their own "motto"? Was that something people did in the 19th century? Maybe I'm just going to have to be satisfied with being able to place it within a short time period and not knowing anything further about it. Attached Images

2nd October 2024, 07:23 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi Rachelle, As Jim has pointed out the second basket hilt sword conforms to the P1828 Scottish officers regulation pattern. The button at the bottom of the scabbard is standard for scabbards of this pattern. A look at the blade should give more information as it may have all, some or none of the following, a proof slug which may point towards a particular maker, a makers name and possibly address, a regnal cipher i.e VR, ER VIII etc., or least likely a regimental name or insignia. Hope this is of some assistance. Regards, Norman.

8th October 2024, 05:21 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Thank you Rachelle for adding this. From what I can find, William Widdowson & Robert Veale worked at 73 Strand in London from 1835-1876. After that the firm merged, Widdowson had passed in 1872. Widdowson was apparently a very high station silversmith who had taken over the business from John Salter who was close friends with Admiral Nelsons granddaughter Horatia. She had him as jeweler and silversmith in various commissions to Nelson. This undoubtedly led to Widdowson becoming appointed silversmith to Prince Albert, and as noted a highly appointed artisan who not only worked with design items of precious metals, but also made orders and decorations for the British army and navy. He also worked with the Royal Court in Spain. The VR cypher indicates of course the blade, and by virtue of its being commissioned privately suggests the blade and hilt are homogenous. It appears that Widdowson also fashioned hilts, and in this case followed the well established 1828 Scottish pattern (often regarded as 1835). As Queen Victoria began her reign in 1837, and married Prince Albert in 1840, that may be regarded as earliest date for this sword. The end date would be 1876 as noted earlier with the name of this firm ending that year. Without regimental markings or personal inscription it is hard to establish which unit of the British army this basket hilt might belong to. The regiments known to have had these 1828 style hilts for officers were; Royal Scots Fusiliers; Highland Light Infantry; Seaforth Highlanders; Cameron Highlanders; Kings Own Scottish Borderers; Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders; and of course the Black Watch (42nd). Possibly the motto inscribed might be a clue if it can be attributed to one of these units specifically. It would seem it must have been to a very distinguished officer with one of these also highly distinguished regiments as it was a sword produced by such a high end cutler. If he had the sword made for himself personally it is unlikely he would have placed his own name, as this was typically reserved for swords being presented to someone. Similarly, it would not be necessary to place regimental name, but to add a significant motto would be. Just my own views from researching this beautiful basket hilt, and as always I would like to hear other comments.

11th October 2024, 07:09 AM	#6
Rachelle.Slattery Member Join Date: Sep 2024 Posts: 8	Thanks Bryce. I think a wolf is definitely a possibility. I will endeavour to try and get some better pictures of the 1828 blade motif over the weekend. The motto is definitely leading me to dead ends as it is actually the prussian motto, but in English.