Glasgow Hilt?

[Rachelle.Slattery]

I've been lurking and searching on here for a while trying to learn more about the swords I inherited from my grandfather. Below is what I believe to be a Glasgow hilt. I have only just been able to find what may be some form of maker's mark/s on the hilt. Unfortunately, there appears to be no markings on the blade. If anyone is able to shed more light on exactly what, who etc I have here. I will also be uploading more of what I have inherited, but would like to gain as much info on them one by one.

[Interested Party]

I'm sorry to hear about your granddad but it is a nice inheritance. I am looking forward to reading what the experts have to say and seeing the rest of the collection. I have always wanted one of these with the broad sword blade, wrist protection intact for use on foot, and Jacobite decoration.

[Radboud]

Interesting, this is the second time I've seen sword made up from a basket hilt and a Sudanese takouba blade.

The blade on the other sword used a 1828 pattern basket, and had a marked blade:






It makes me think that there was someone assembling these swords out of parts some time back.

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by Radboud

It makes me think that there was someone assembling these swords out of parts some time back.

Where do you think this basket came from?

[Rachelle.Slattery]

Originally Posted by Radboud

Interesting, this is the second time I've seen sword made up from a basket hilt and a Sudanese takouba blade.

Interesting. There is no apparent markings on the blade that I've been able to find. Would the blade potentially date differently to the hilt?

[Lee]

In the relevant times, European "trade" blades were widely exported and may be seen in a wide variety of regional mountings: Tuareg takoubas, Sudanese kaskaras, Mexican espada anchas and, yes, Scottish basket hilts.

But, Scottish baskethilts are a treacherous area indeed as far as prevalence of forgeries goes - especially with desirable broad double-edged blades - and my own record of separating true from false is one of failure and acquisition of expensive and attractive wall hangers unlikely to have ever been in Scotland.

There are some members here with experience in these things and hopefully they can narrow down the origins of the hilt and whether the blade is original to it.

[Jim McDougall]

This is a most interesting thread in examining this Scottish basket hilt, which is 'by the numbers' a traditional Glasgow form. I have been going through resources to find comparisons, and there are a number of key factors to note.

First I would refer to the blade, which is clearly not of broadsword blade forms typically seen in Scottish basket hilts. As has been noted, there are numbers of cases where readily available broadsword blades from the Sudanese campaigns seem to have been used to fashion mostly reproductions of medieval broadswords. However with the Scottish fashion in vogue in Great Britain from 1850s it does not seem far fetched to imagine officers desiring basket hilt swords in this convention.

This blade seems to follow the centrally placed triple fuller configuration which is indeed much like those of Sudan as well as the Sahara, with the opposed crescent moons (dukari) most typical of Saharan examples. While there do seem to be triple fuller centrally placed configurations on earlier blades from Europe, these North African types (often termed Masri) apparently were made locally as well as being imported from Solingen. As far as known the twin moons were applied locally (presumably by Hausa smiths).

Whatever the case, this blade seems to be in latter 19th c. probability, and possibly indeed from a kaskara sword from Sudan.

With the hilt, as noted, by the numbers it follows distinct Scottish convention in the pierced decoration, but seems rather crude for the known hammermen of Glasgow. I have never seen an X with simple intersecting lines and holes drilled at all points on the side shields. The triangles with two dots above in piercings on the shield seem to follow earlier form (1720s-30s) but the pommel etc of later bun form. The bracket cut edges on shield and guards are impressive, but the applying of lined borders seem lacking.

With the presumed makers marks which appear to be initials I cannot see clearly, but in the correct configuration in accord with the 8 known examples (T Gemmill signed his full name in the 9th). The lower letter typically is an S or G (Stirling or Glasgow) for the makers place of production.

In these initials on the rear quillon (bottom of hilt) while properly placed the letters do not seem in accord with any of the known makers who signed their hilts. The Stirling hilts were 'artistic' (seldom alike) while Glasgow followed traditional style and form.

These are just my observations from what I can find in resources so far (Mazansky; Whitelaw; Wallace) and I would welcome any other notes or views.

I would be interested to know more on the circumstances of the late gentleman who owned this basket hilt as he apparently owned other swords as well. These kinds of notes as part of the provenance of these help a great deal in determining more on the weapon(s) themselves. It sounds as if he was a discerning gentleman, and it would be fascinating to know more on the nature of his collecting.

I would like to thank Rachel for sharing this basket hilt here and for joining us!

[Rachelle.Slattery]

Thanks Jim. I really appreciate your insight. My grandfather's collection is quite eclectic in that there are not only swords, a few daggers, all European with exception of some more recent Japanese swords. He also was an avid collector of firearms both rifles and pistols. He was of German heritage and immigrated to Australia approximately 6 weeks before the borders closed and WW2 broke out at 16 years of age. I do believe a lot of his collection is German/Prussian, there is another basket hilt in the collection and what I believe is a shiavona (see below). I have searched for any records of his purchases that he may have kept, but it appears what I have found only relate to his firearms. My mum said she thinks he purchased a lot of his swords from a dealer in Sydney (majority of these would have been between 1950-1980) but can't recall the name. He also would visit Wallace (?) in England to research his next purchases whenever he travelled there.

[werecow]

That is indeed a very nice Schiavona. #1 on my wishlist for the last few years.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Rachelle for the additional information! Clearly your grandfather was a fascinating and interesting guy who liked to expand his horizons judging by his eclectic scope of collecting. It seems he was primarily a gun collector as most of his records and notes focused on them. The swords it seems attracted him for the aesthetics, as these are extremely attractive examples of the most revered forms, the schiavona and Scottish basket hilt.

It seems to me that these are 19th century examples, probably end of the century with the basket hilts. As earlier noted the first one follows Glasgow form and has a blade compellingly like the blades of Sudanese kaskara, but possibly German. While kaskaras with these triple fullers were the source of many sword fabrications after the 1898 campaigns, these type blades were coming out of Solingen many years earlier.

The hilt on this as well as the second basket hilt seem to be perhaps for officers of the Scottish regiments certainly post 1828, and probably later. The second one has the circle eight hearts on shield and hearts of later configuration on the side guard. The device with roundels rather than the traditional rams horns is also indicative of these later military hilts, as is the metal scabbard.

Scottish tradition, fashion and convention became highly in vogue from 1850s onward in Great Britain, so the fabrication of these swords may well have been in this context.

The schiavona is another case of strong traditional form followed, but most certainly not exactly. The pommel, which is properly brass, lacks the ears (points) of the characteristic cats head.....but most interestingly has the lions head in place of the central boss. The lion is the heraldic symbol of St. Marks and Venice, but this typically is marked elsewhere on the sword. I have not seen one on a pommel like this.

The lattice, arms of the guard are slightly different, but variation was common, and the downturned quillon is quite unusual. It reminds me of a Spanish affectation. It should be noted that schiavona did make it into Spain in some circumstances.
With this it is hard to say for sure where this outstanding sword falls, but it does have an old German blade with the well known running wolf.

The Wallace Collection in London is one of the most outstanding resource centers for the study of historical arms and armor, and the two volume catalogue reference is in my opinion one the most valuable we have.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Rachelle,
As Jim has pointed out the second basket hilt sword conforms to the P1828 Scottish officers regulation pattern. The button at the bottom of the scabbard is standard for scabbards of this pattern. A look at the blade should give more information as it may have all, some or none of the following, a proof slug which may point towards a particular maker, a makers name and possibly address, a regnal cipher i.e VR, ER VIII etc., or least likely a regimental name or insignia. Hope this is of some assistance.
Regards,
Norman.

[Rachelle.Slattery]

Thanks for that Norman. I have attached a few photos of the p1828 hilt and blade. It appears to be from Queen Victoria era, with acid etched motif and I believe the maker/s were Widdowson and Veale of London.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Rachelle for adding this. From what I can find, William Widdowson & Robert Veale worked at 73 Strand in London from 1835-1876. After that the firm merged, Widdowson had passed in 1872.

Widdowson was apparently a very high station silversmith who had taken over the business from John Salter who was close friends with Admiral Nelsons granddaughter Horatia. She had him as jeweler and silversmith in various commissions to Nelson.
This undoubtedly led to Widdowson becoming appointed silversmith to Prince Albert, and as noted a highly appointed artisan who not only worked with design items of precious metals, but also made orders and decorations for the British army and navy. He also worked with the Royal Court in Spain.

The VR cypher indicates of course the blade, and by virtue of its being commissioned privately suggests the blade and hilt are homogenous. It appears that Widdowson also fashioned hilts, and in this case followed the well established 1828 Scottish pattern (often regarded as 1835).

As Queen Victoria began her reign in 1837, and married Prince Albert in 1840, that may be regarded as earliest date for this sword. The end date would be 1876 as noted earlier with the name of this firm ending that year.

Without regimental markings or personal inscription it is hard to establish which unit of the British army this basket hilt might belong to. The regiments known to have had these 1828 style hilts for officers were;
Royal Scots Fusiliers; Highland Light Infantry; Seaforth Highlanders; Cameron Highlanders; Kings Own Scottish Borderers; Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders; and of course the Black Watch (42nd).

Possibly the motto inscribed might be a clue if it can be attributed to one of these units specifically.

It would seem it must have been to a very distinguished officer with one of these also highly distinguished regiments as it was a sword produced by such a high end cutler. If he had the sword made for himself personally it is unlikely he would have placed his own name, as this was typically reserved for swords being presented to someone. Similarly, it would not be necessary to place regimental name, but to add a significant motto would be.

Just my own views from researching this beautiful basket hilt, and as always I would like to hear other comments.

[Rachelle.Slattery]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Without regimental markings or personal inscription it is hard to establish which unit of the British army this basket hilt might belong to. The regiments known to have had these 1828 style hilts for officers were;
Royal Scots Fusiliers; Highland Light Infantry; Seaforth Highlanders; Cameron Highlanders; Kings Own Scottish Borderers; Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders; and of course the Black Watch (42nd).

Possibly the motto inscribed might be a clue if it can be attributed to one of these units specifically.

Thanks Jim, this is quite insightful. I would love to hear if anyone is able to shed more light specifically on the motto (God with us). I have spent a good few hours looking for a regiment during that time period (1837 - 1860) using the motto, it does not appear to belong to any of the above mentioned regiments. The closest I did come was the Fletcher clan motto "God for us".

[Bryce]

G'day Rachelle,
I think it is very likely that the coat of arms on the blade belong to the owner of the sword. Often (but not always), there will be a set of initials as well. If you can post some better photos of the coat of arms and the other blade decoration as well, we may be able to identify the owner. Unfortunately, even with a coat of arms, it isn't always possible to identify the owner. Sometimes it is difficult to identify what the various elements on a coat of arms are. For example this crest below is actually a wolf. If I hadn't have been able to identify the owner by other means I would have been none the wiser.
Cheers,
Bryce

[Rachelle.Slattery]

Thanks Bryce. I think a wolf is definitely a possibility. I will endeavour to try and get some better pictures of the 1828 blade motif over the weekend. The motto is definitely leading me to dead ends as it is actually the prussian motto, but in English.

[Rachelle.Slattery]

Unfortunately, this is the best I am able to get the image of the crest and motto. I have had no luck trying to link the motto to any of the regiments during Queen Victoria's reign. I'm wondering if rather than it being made specifically for a regiment it may have been purchased by an individual and they ordered it with their own "motto"? Was that something people did in the 19th century?
Maybe I'm just going to have to be satisfied with being able to place it within a short time period and not knowing anything further about it.

[Bryce]

G'day Rachelle,
Your sword would have been purchased by an individual officer, who would have been serving in a particular regiment at the time. Most swords only have generic blade decoration, but some are marked with the owner's initials, crest, motto etc. Some are marked to the regiment the owner served with and if you are really lucky, the sword is marked to both the owner and the regiment they served with. If marked to both you have the best chance of tracking down the owner. The coat of arms on your sword most probably belongs to the owner, but it is possible it has some other significance. To have any chance of identifying the owner you need to get better photos of it. We need to be able to determine what the particular elements of it are.
Cheers,
Bryce