Names of African Swords

Pertinax · 19th September 2024, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Changdao

It is a frequent phenomenon. Many of the names that stick really are just "sword" in the native language. Sometimes they can be useful, and other times they absolutely flatten the nuances that there are, especially if what is taken as the name is actually that of the people (or part of) using them.

"Mandinka" sabres are absolutely one example. These were used by the Mandinka, the Wolof, the Fulani (many branches of them: Toucouleurs, in Futa Djallon, in coastal Senegambia, etc), but it is rather common to see them attributed only to Mandinka when it is actually unknown. I actually believe that they originated within the Mandinka, just that it happened way back in the XV-XVIth century and it gave way to a rather large weapon family

In House, "Mandinka" was apparently called bisalami, almulku.

The author provides interesting data in the note to chapter 3:

19 Leather- and metal-crafts were important native industries. Although many sword blades (s. ruwan takobi) were made locally by the cire-perdue, or "lost wax," method, imported tempered blades were superior and preferred to the more brittle domestic variety. Barth estimated that Kano imported annually about 50,000 sword blades, mostly from Solingen. These were mounted and sheathed by native craftsmen and sold throughout the Sudan: Travels and Discoveries,
I, 519-20.

Tim Simmons · 20th September 2024, 06:32 PM

You might find this dagger interesting. Scroll down to figure 8 in the link you provided. Although the scabbard is different you see the same weapon. This is obviously 20th century and pristine. It could be "earlyish" having been well kept all its life outside of Africa , who knows, but who cares as it is as I said in pristine condition.

Changdao · 20th September 2024, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

You might find this dagger interesting. Scroll down to figure 8 in the link you provided. Although the scabbard is different you see the same weapon. This is obviously 20th century and pristine. It could be "earlyish" having been well kept all its life outside of Africa , who knows, but who cares as it is as I said in pristine condition.

Those weapon figures in that book are mostly wrong. In Figure 8, most of those dagger are in a style usually associated with the Toubou, not the Hausa, and the dagger like yours is associated to the areas west of the Niger River bend, particularly to the Mandinka (at least the style of the leatherwork).

However, this type of dagger with the red leather is associated in particular with the Wolof in Senegal, at least according to the identifications and provenance of various pieces in the Quai de Branly Museum.

Examples here:

https://www.quaibranly.fr/en/explore...-son-fourreau´

https://www.quaibranly.fr/en/explore...t-son-fourreau

https://www.quaibranly.fr/en/explore...17333-poignard

https://www.quaibranly.fr/en/explore...rd-et-fourreau

Pertinax · 20th September 2024, 09:20 PM

[QUOTE=Changdao;293351]Those weapon figures in that book are mostly wrong. In Figure 8, most of those dagger are in a style usually associated with the Toubou, not the Hausa, and the dagger like yours is associated to the areas west of the Niger River bend, particularly to the Mandinka (at least the style of the leatherwork).

As I understand it, the author in the photo showed general examples of swords and daggers that House used, without specific names.

Tim Simmons · 21st September 2024, 08:01 AM

This might help show how weapons an styles cross borders. Also ethinc groups scattered in the modern states of West Africa.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fula_jihads
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futa_Tooro
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fula_l...ss%20some%2018

Pertinax · 20th September 2024, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

You might find this dagger interesting. Scroll down to figure 8 in the link you provided. Although the scabbard is different you see the same weapon. This is obviously 20th century and pristine. It could be "earlyish" having been well kept all its life outside of Africa , who knows, but who cares as it is as I said in pristine condition.

Yes, it looks like the top one. And the other 4 daggers, we are used to calling - dagger Tubu.

Tim Simmons · 20th September 2024, 08:30 PM

Who really knows what is right or wrong in such a vast and varied region. All our information is from multi opinions that cannot be verified.

Changdao · 23rd September 2024, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Who really knows what is right or wrong in such a vast and varied region. All our information is from multi opinions that cannot be verified.

But much of it can certainly be verified, to a certain degree. There are a lot of precolonial and colonial drawings and photographies in which weapons are shown. Not all are reliable, and some should be taken with extreme caution, but when put together they paint a decent picture of the situation.

Of course, there are so many gaps in our knowledge due to a lack of study and poor sources (in the lack of archaeological evidence) that so much of the granularity is lost.

Pertinax · 24th September 2024, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Changdao

But much of it can certainly be verified, to a certain degree. There are a lot of precolonial and colonial drawings and photographies in which weapons are shown. Not all are reliable, and some should be taken with extreme caution, but when put together they paint a decent picture of the situation.

Of course, there are so many gaps in our knowledge due to a lack of study and poor sources (in the lack of archaeological evidence) that so much of the granularity is lost.

I agree 100%.

But it seems to me that the names of African swords, daggers that we use and were mostly invented by researchers/collectors will remain the same. These names have become too widespread among collectors all over the world. On the other hand, it is convenient, by the name of the people or tribe you can determine where this or that item was discovered/made.

Jim McDougall · 25th September 2024, 04:48 PM

This is an interesting topic, actually one that has perplexed me through the many years I have been obsessed with the study of swords. The field of ethnographic weapons is probably one of the most complex with regard to terms used for the various weapon forms, primarily because of the many languages and dialects describing them.

This is the bane of researchers as they comb through old references, local accounts etc. in trying to discover the development and history of the weapon form. I was once told by a well known authority on Indonesian weapons that in many cases terms for the same or similar form might vary almost by villages and of course tribal groups.

As has been noted, often the term follows root words that are action verbs such as cut, wound etc. for edged items and become collectively used and of course for a number of types which range from daggers or knives to larger forms up to swords.

In the case of the mysterious etymology of the 'kaskara' for example, after years of research, nobody had a clue where this word came from. I even went to authorities in British museums, authors and one noted reference even from the university at Khartoum, still no clue.

The term had become embedded in collectors vernacular thoroughly and thus assumed to be the proper term locally without any question. However, this was NOT the case. Talking with people from Sudan and Ethiopia, often with different tribal background, NONE had any idea of the term 'kaskara', and looked puzzled when I noted it.
They knew these broadswords only as 'sa'if', which is of course the Arabic collective term for 'sword'. In one case, one man noted they called them 'cross', of course referring to the configuration of cross guard to blade.

It was not until Iain Norman, who has done virtually THE landmark research on the takouba, took the time to delve into Saharan tribal dialects and found that the word was from one tribal language along trade routes. Obviously from trade going into Sudan.
Burton (1884) made use of the term kaskara but somehow never footnoted the word nor etymology! For Burton, the linguist, this is rare!

Whatever the case, the word never caught on in Sudan, at least clearly in any degree, but writers on arms, following Burton, used the term and the rest, as they say, is history.

This struggle to assign names to specific weapons has been ongoing of course, and here, over the past 25 years, there has been much consternation over correct or proper terms for specific weapons (we call it 'the name game', banana, fana, fo fana!! for those who remember the song).

We could spin these analogies all week, but the situation is pretty much as recognized by the excellent observations entered here already. As someone who has been involved in this study often, I just wanted to add my two bits.

20th September 2024, 06:32 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	You might find this dagger interesting. Scroll down to figure 8 in the link you provided. Although the scabbard is different you see the same weapon. This is obviously 20th century and pristine. It could be "earlyish" having been well kept all its life outside of Africa , who knows, but who cares as it is as I said in pristine condition. Attached Images

21st September 2024, 08:01 AM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	This might help show how weapons an styles cross borders. Also ethinc groups scattered in the modern states of West Africa. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fula_jihads https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futa_Tooro https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fula_l...ss%20some%2018 Last edited by Tim Simmons; 21st September 2024 at 08:20 AM.

20th September 2024, 09:20 PM	#4
Pertinax Member Join Date: Dec 2023 Location: City by the Black Sea Posts: 159	[QUOTE=Changdao;293351]Those weapon figures in that book are mostly wrong. In Figure 8, most of those dagger are in a style usually associated with the Toubou, not the Hausa, and the dagger like yours is associated to the areas west of the Niger River bend, particularly to the Mandinka (at least the style of the leatherwork). As I understand it, the author in the photo showed general examples of swords and daggers that House used, without specific names.

20th September 2024, 08:30 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Who really knows what is right or wrong in such a vast and varied region. All our information is from multi opinions that cannot be verified.

25th September 2024, 04:48 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,948	This is an interesting topic, actually one that has perplexed me through the many years I have been obsessed with the study of swords. The field of ethnographic weapons is probably one of the most complex with regard to terms used for the various weapon forms, primarily because of the many languages and dialects describing them. This is the bane of researchers as they comb through old references, local accounts etc. in trying to discover the development and history of the weapon form. I was once told by a well known authority on Indonesian weapons that in many cases terms for the same or similar form might vary almost by villages and of course tribal groups. As has been noted, often the term follows root words that are action verbs such as cut, wound etc. for edged items and become collectively used and of course for a number of types which range from daggers or knives to larger forms up to swords. In the case of the mysterious etymology of the 'kaskara' for example, after years of research, nobody had a clue where this word came from. I even went to authorities in British museums, authors and one noted reference even from the university at Khartoum, still no clue. The term had become embedded in collectors vernacular thoroughly and thus assumed to be the proper term locally without any question. However, this was NOT the case. Talking with people from Sudan and Ethiopia, often with different tribal background, NONE had any idea of the term 'kaskara', and looked puzzled when I noted it. They knew these broadswords only as 'sa'if', which is of course the Arabic collective term for 'sword'. In one case, one man noted they called them 'cross', of course referring to the configuration of cross guard to blade. It was not until Iain Norman, who has done virtually THE landmark research on the takouba, took the time to delve into Saharan tribal dialects and found that the word was from one tribal language along trade routes. Obviously from trade going into Sudan. Burton (1884) made use of the term kaskara but somehow never footnoted the word nor etymology! For Burton, the linguist, this is rare! Whatever the case, the word never caught on in Sudan, at least clearly in any degree, but writers on arms, following Burton, used the term and the rest, as they say, is history. This struggle to assign names to specific weapons has been ongoing of course, and here, over the past 25 years, there has been much consternation over correct or proper terms for specific weapons (we call it 'the name game', banana, fana, fo fana!! for those who remember the song). We could spin these analogies all week, but the situation is pretty much as recognized by the excellent observations entered here already. As someone who has been involved in this study often, I just wanted to add my two bits.