British 1796 HCS pattern blade shape

Triarii · Yesterday, 01:56 PM

https://www.google.co.uk/books/editi...mQvrEvTVLCumLA

From "The trial of Major William Gordon of the 2nd DG, for the murder of George Gregory (on 25 March 1814 at the 'Vill of Ramsgate'), a private in the same regiment, at the Guildhall, Sandwich on April 15, 1814, as taken by a short-hand writer".
A summary:
Major Gordon was on foot for the altercation with a mounted trooper who was alleged to be drunk, he drew the troopers own sword, hit the horse with the flat and then according to witnesses, 'gave the point at the man' (this phrase is repeated in the testimony and questioning) and according to the charge inflicted a wound in Gregory's left side one inch wide and six inches deep, 'near the last rib'. (The doctor testifies that the wound was 14 inches deep).
Some describe the troopers horse as 'linging' (dropping) and turning towards the major who already had the sword pointed and were surprised that it did much damage. Others, notably the Rutland Militia soldiers present, disagreed about the horse moving, though the Q&A indicates some animosity towards the DG officer.
Interestingly, the Corporal with Gregory didn't have his sword with him as 'it was at headquarters [of the regiment in Deal] to be ground'.
They then discuss that the troopers sword - handed to another officer in the court - was "much sharper than cavalry swords usually are" because it had "been ground for foreign service" the day before. "They are not allowed to be sharp, excepting on particular occasions."
The key point is that the jury are directed to examine the troopers sword and told "The Gentlemen of the jury will observe that one sword is sharpened along the edge as well as at the point." and "having not only been sharpened, considerably reduced at the point."

He was found guilty of manslaughter and fined £50.

Jim McDougall · Yesterday, 08:02 PM

This is amazing stuff guys!
Fascinating to see events reported in real time accounts.
With the situation with the 2nd DG officer and trooper, this was hardly a 'duel'

In these times, there was a lot of internecine politics in these regiments, and not surprising that this animosity would result in these kinds of altercations.
The fact that the trooper was drunk, and apparently approaching the officer menacingly, suggests the officer was acting in self defense.
Grabbing the troopers sword and using it to ward him off seems like a rather predictable action.

What is telling here is that the sword was held 'pointed' at the trooper, and the dynamic action of the horse reacting to whatever the trooper was doing led to his unfortunate impaling.

As for our purposes, this account indicates the swords used (1796 heavy cavalry) were in the process of being ground at the point for thrusting at this time. Clearly it was not a field process, but undertaken at the regimental base preparing for foreign service.

With the other most bizarre incident, the 18th 'Kings Irish" light dragoons were using of course the 1796 light cavalry saber. While the trooper who was severely injured by the sword by falling on it as he fell off the horse has nothing to do with the modifying of points on the 1796 heavy cavalry sword, it is an interesting anomaly of an accident. How would the trooper fall on the sword, which 'fell out of its scabbard' presumably in the same action of falling off a slipping horse?
He must have gone off and headed down head first, with the sword coming out in the same movement, thus landing on the ground prior to the contact of the troopers head.

No rider myself, I did experience falling off a horse once (a huge one at that) and the impact alone about did me in, I can imagine if a sword had been there for me to land on! Wonder if this guy made it.

Yesterday, 01:56 PM	#1
Triarii Member Join Date: Oct 2021 Location: Bristol Posts: 109	https://www.google.co.uk/books/editi...mQvrEvTVLCumLA From "The trial of Major William Gordon of the 2nd DG, for the murder of George Gregory (on 25 March 1814 at the 'Vill of Ramsgate'), a private in the same regiment, at the Guildhall, Sandwich on April 15, 1814, as taken by a short-hand writer". A summary: Major Gordon was on foot for the altercation with a mounted trooper who was alleged to be drunk, he drew the troopers own sword, hit the horse with the flat and then according to witnesses, 'gave the point at the man' (this phrase is repeated in the testimony and questioning) and according to the charge inflicted a wound in Gregory's left side one inch wide and six inches deep, 'near the last rib'. (The doctor testifies that the wound was 14 inches deep). Some describe the troopers horse as 'linging' (dropping) and turning towards the major who already had the sword pointed and were surprised that it did much damage. Others, notably the Rutland Militia soldiers present, disagreed about the horse moving, though the Q&A indicates some animosity towards the DG officer. Interestingly, the Corporal with Gregory didn't have his sword with him as 'it was at headquarters [of the regiment in Deal] to be ground'. They then discuss that the troopers sword - handed to another officer in the court - was "much sharper than cavalry swords usually are" because it had "been ground for foreign service" the day before. "They are not allowed to be sharp, excepting on particular occasions." The key point is that the jury are directed to examine the troopers sword and told "The Gentlemen of the jury will observe that one sword is sharpened along the edge as well as at the point." and "having not only been sharpened, considerably reduced at the point." He was found guilty of manslaughter and fined £50.

Yesterday, 08:02 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,902	This is amazing stuff guys! Fascinating to see events reported in real time accounts. With the situation with the 2nd DG officer and trooper, this was hardly a 'duel' In these times, there was a lot of internecine politics in these regiments, and not surprising that this animosity would result in these kinds of altercations. The fact that the trooper was drunk, and apparently approaching the officer menacingly, suggests the officer was acting in self defense. Grabbing the troopers sword and using it to ward him off seems like a rather predictable action. What is telling here is that the sword was held 'pointed' at the trooper, and the dynamic action of the horse reacting to whatever the trooper was doing led to his unfortunate impaling. As for our purposes, this account indicates the swords used (1796 heavy cavalry) were in the process of being ground at the point for thrusting at this time. Clearly it was not a field process, but undertaken at the regimental base preparing for foreign service. With the other most bizarre incident, the 18th 'Kings Irish" light dragoons were using of course the 1796 light cavalry saber. While the trooper who was severely injured by the sword by falling on it as he fell off the horse has nothing to do with the modifying of points on the 1796 heavy cavalry sword, it is an interesting anomaly of an accident. How would the trooper fall on the sword, which 'fell out of its scabbard' presumably in the same action of falling off a slipping horse? He must have gone off and headed down head first, with the sword coming out in the same movement, thus landing on the ground prior to the contact of the troopers head. No rider myself, I did experience falling off a horse once (a huge one at that) and the impact alone about did me in, I can imagine if a sword had been there for me to land on! Wonder if this guy made it.