Small Sword Dutch or French

Interested Party · 17th September 2024, 07:03 PM

An alternate cast of characters would be Pluto and Persephony. With the figure in the knuckle bow being a Caryatid. I guess the question is do you see the fruits as apples or pomegranates??

Thanks for the detailed photos!

Jim McDougall · 17th September 2024, 10:48 PM

Cathey, thank you for the further details, and all additional observations and perspectives always help. These kinds of allegorical themes are typically an entire conundrum, as we cannot know which contexts they may be aligned with. A Christian connotation may not specifically denote Catholic, as noted in that various other denominations of Christianity also follow the teachings of St.Augustine; Greek Orthodox; Lutheran.

It is important to note that there were tensions and strife even within certain religious factions,for example even in later times within the Lutheran church between 'synods' or branches. I am not sure that certain phraseology or mottos in Latin align particularly with a certain nationality, though of course sometimes the character of the wording might differ slightly it seems. Whatever the case, the Latin orientation in the Catholic manner of well known mottos or invocations would transcend nationality as far as use on blades.

It seems also that the blades themselves were of course typically German, that is most often Solingen, so were mounted in the swords of most European nations including the Netherlands, France and England. What is notable is this hexagonal blade form seems unusual for smallswords, which typically had hollow ground triple face blades. Blades of this section it seems were usually on heavier blades, but obviously that may not entirely be the case.

So basically it is down to trying to determine if the character of the intricate neoclassical and allegorical theme might have some specific alignment either nationally or with a certain group or following. Neoclassicism was of course an artistic movement that again transcended nationality in Europe in the 18th century and used allegoric with both Greek and Roman origin.

Possibly there might be clues in Bashford Dean (1928)?
The small sword genre is literally wrought with these kinds of conundrums as the basic form was so collectively used, and only decoration and nuanced elements of the hilt typically offer possible categorization.

Cathey · Yesterday, 02:54 AM

Hi Interested Party, yes could be Pluto and Persephony, they might be pomegranates not apples. This would fit with Pan making a brief appearance on the pommel perhaps. Cheers Cathey

Yesterday, 02:54 AM	#3
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 280	Pluto and Persephony Hi Interested Party, yes could be Pluto and Persephony, they might be pomegranates not apples. This would fit with Pan making a brief appearance on the pommel perhaps. Cheers Cathey

17th September 2024, 07:03 PM	#1
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 440	An alternate cast of characters would be Pluto and Persephony. With the figure in the knuckle bow being a Caryatid. I guess the question is do you see the fruits as apples or pomegranates?? Thanks for the detailed photos!

17th September 2024, 10:48 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,902	Cathey, thank you for the further details, and all additional observations and perspectives always help. These kinds of allegorical themes are typically an entire conundrum, as we cannot know which contexts they may be aligned with. A Christian connotation may not specifically denote Catholic, as noted in that various other denominations of Christianity also follow the teachings of St.Augustine; Greek Orthodox; Lutheran. It is important to note that there were tensions and strife even within certain religious factions,for example even in later times within the Lutheran church between 'synods' or branches. I am not sure that certain phraseology or mottos in Latin align particularly with a certain nationality, though of course sometimes the character of the wording might differ slightly it seems. Whatever the case, the Latin orientation in the Catholic manner of well known mottos or invocations would transcend nationality as far as use on blades. It seems also that the blades themselves were of course typically German, that is most often Solingen, so were mounted in the swords of most European nations including the Netherlands, France and England. What is notable is this hexagonal blade form seems unusual for smallswords, which typically had hollow ground triple face blades. Blades of this section it seems were usually on heavier blades, but obviously that may not entirely be the case. So basically it is down to trying to determine if the character of the intricate neoclassical and allegorical theme might have some specific alignment either nationally or with a certain group or following. Neoclassicism was of course an artistic movement that again transcended nationality in Europe in the 18th century and used allegoric with both Greek and Roman origin. Possibly there might be clues in Bashford Dean (1928)? The small sword genre is literally wrought with these kinds of conundrums as the basic form was so collectively used, and only decoration and nuanced elements of the hilt typically offer possible categorization.