Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury
FAQ Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 17th September 2024, 07:05 AM   #1
Radboud
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 261
Default

I love the detail there Cathy. Although I'm not sure I see a christian theme there. Some of my observations:
1. Both figures are seated surrounded what look like acanthus leaf, which were picked up in 18th-century neo-classical art. Acanthus has multiple meanings, enduring life, immortality or in some christian tradition pain, sin and punishment.
2. The animals on either side of the figures have curled rams horns.
3. Next to the man they face him with his bodies, but turn their heads away, while next to the woman they have their backs turned but heads towards her.
4. The animals next to the man appear to have wings and monkey tails while the other pair do not.

Unfortuantly I don't know what they mean either, but I'm sure there is a significance to them and they would have told a story to the original owner.
Radboud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th September 2024, 08:03 PM   #2
Interested Party
Member
 
Interested Party's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Eastern Sierra
Posts: 471
Default

An alternate cast of characters would be Pluto and Persephony. With the figure in the knuckle bow being a Caryatid. I guess the question is do you see the fruits as apples or pomegranates??

Thanks for the detailed photos!
Interested Party is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th September 2024, 11:48 PM   #3
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,946
Default

Cathey, thank you for the further details, and all additional observations and perspectives always help. These kinds of allegorical themes are typically an entire conundrum, as we cannot know which contexts they may be aligned with. A Christian connotation may not specifically denote Catholic, as noted in that various other denominations of Christianity also follow the teachings of St.Augustine; Greek Orthodox; Lutheran.

It is important to note that there were tensions and strife even within certain religious factions,for example even in later times within the Lutheran church between 'synods' or branches. I am not sure that certain phraseology or mottos in Latin align particularly with a certain nationality, though of course sometimes the character of the wording might differ slightly it seems. Whatever the case, the Latin orientation in the Catholic manner of well known mottos or invocations would transcend nationality as far as use on blades.

It seems also that the blades themselves were of course typically German, that is most often Solingen, so were mounted in the swords of most European nations including the Netherlands, France and England. What is notable is this hexagonal blade form seems unusual for smallswords, which typically had hollow ground triple face blades. Blades of this section it seems were usually on heavier blades, but obviously that may not entirely be the case.

So basically it is down to trying to determine if the character of the intricate neoclassical and allegorical theme might have some specific alignment either nationally or with a certain group or following. Neoclassicism was of course an artistic movement that again transcended nationality in Europe in the 18th century and used allegoric with both Greek and Roman origin.

Possibly there might be clues in Bashford Dean (1928)?
The small sword genre is literally wrought with these kinds of conundrums as the basic form was so collectively used, and only decoration and nuanced elements of the hilt typically offer possible categorization.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th September 2024, 03:54 AM   #4
Cathey
Member
 
Cathey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: adelaide south australia
Posts: 282
Default Pluto and Persephony

Hi Interested Party, yes could be Pluto and Persephony, they might be pomegranates not apples. This would fit with Pan making a brief appearance on the pommel perhaps. Cheers Cathey
Cathey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th September 2024, 04:46 PM   #5
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,946
Default

You guys are much better at all the classic iconography and mythology than I am (by far!) but it seems the neoclassic theme in the hilt artistry is pretty universal throughout Europe in this period. The style of the hilt, as transcendent as small sword hilts are, at best guess in end of first quarter 18th c.+.

For me what is most notable is the blade and grip style. The fluted (reeded) ivory is as previously noted something seen on 17th c. Iberian rapiers, mostly Spanish it seems. It was by no means prevalent, but something that was indeed seen on occasion, and by that token, likely prestigious. With the potential for the ivory to be perhaps mammoth from Siberian regions, and the diplomatic relations between the Russian and Bourbon courts, this seems a likely possibility.

With the blade, this seems again, a Spanish preference (dos mesas, as I think Fernando told me once was the term). These hexagonal sections prevailed on heavier dragoon blades about mid 18th c.+ in Spain (I think of the noted 'Spanish motto' blades).

The motto tends to the following of St. Augustine and while Christian, does not denote Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant in particular as far as I can see.
In the Spanish Netherlands, which may be the origin of this sword, such a motto would not define any specific Faith IMO, thus would not be defined despite the well noted strife between Catholic and Protestant there.

I searched through Bashford Dean (1929) and did not find any comparable themes nor any example with reeded ivory grip. As this comprehensive source covers examples from all European countries including Russia, it can be seen this sword is a unique anomaly, and certainly privately commissioned for a person of high status.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th September 2024, 12:19 AM   #6
Radboud
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 261
Default

Personally I think the reeded ivory grip lends towards English origin. There is an abundance of late 18th Century English spadroons (of the type loosely grouped as the 1786 pattern but they certainly predate this.) that have near identical grips.

Such as this one from my collection:
Attached Images
 
Radboud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th September 2024, 08:22 AM   #7
Cathey
Member
 
Cathey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: adelaide south australia
Posts: 282
Default Reeded Ivory Grip

Hi Guys

To be honest the grip is one of the reasons I almost did not buy this sword, the reeded ivory just did not seem right on a small sword. Looking at the the sword it certainly appears to be the original grip, no sign of it ever having been dismantled. Cheers Cathey
Cathey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th September 2024, 07:00 PM   #8
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,946
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radboud View Post
Personally I think the reeded ivory grip lends towards English origin. There is an abundance of late 18th Century English spadroons (of the type loosely grouped as the 1786 pattern but they certainly predate this.) that have near identical grips.

Such as this one from my collection:
Very nice spadroon!
These 1786 suggested form swords typically for infantry and naval officers might indeed have evolved before that, as often the case with regulation 'patterns'.
I am curious about these reeded ivory grips and when they might have begun appearing in England. In my apparently limited exposure to British sword details, I am unaware of these type grips used on hilts until these spadroons and of course naval swords in the last quarter 18th c.

Where do you suppose the influence or inspiration for this styled ivory grip came from? As I had mentioned, I have seen this on Spanish rapier hilts but certainly not commonly.

As the English were often notably influenced by Dutch design etc. in swords (and of course many areas) is it possible that the use of ivory styled in this manner might have come via influences from Spanish Netherlands?

It seems this small sword falls into the hilt stylings of 1730s-50s, but the blade in hexagonal section recalls Spanish blades of later in the century.
The small sword blades, though favoring Colichemarde blades 1690s-1740s but the more common hollow ground three edge blades were more typical.

These are the factors notable in determination of the identification of this sword.....and has Cathey has noted in her recent post, she has found three small swords with this motto on the blade, all Italian.
While not having ivory hilts, it should be noted that many Italian states were provincially Spanish under the Bourbons, and arms and armor moved through these regions accordingly.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:14 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.