Side sword with Victorian chiseled hilt?

ulfberth · 26th August 2024, 05:54 PM

Good Find 10th , that is the Venetian arsenal mark , its found on some schiavonas to, your blade could be variation used in this type and the curved blade is common on naval swords. I always liked these, they show character trough simplicity and even tough they are simple they have a certain elegance about them.
kind regards
Ulfberth

urbanspaceman · 27th August 2024, 02:08 PM

Hello Folks. I have always - instinctively - considered this style of colichemarde to be much earlier that the traditional smallsword variant but, as always, my lack of experience warns me not to make pronouncements until I am certain.
One opinion I proffer is that this style of sword perfectly exemplifies the theory that the pronounced forte was to provide the best of two worlds at a time when regular heavy rapiers and heavier battlefield weapons were a possible opponent.
I understand alternative opinions have been voiced regarding the defence against heavier blade theory... those opinions seem curiously odd.
The appearance of this style of colichemarde is distinctly similar to the thin rapier blades with no possible cutting ability, that were obviously intended - and used - as civilian carry and duelling, but rarely, if ever, battlefield.
It seems obvious to me that the expanded forte was intended to remedy this shortcoming; yet why anyone would wish such a blade on a battlefield, or indeed as a civilian/court carry defies logic. It would certainly not present an attractive look when in its scabbard; the later styles were often considered a bit gross - despite Washington's presidential opinion.
My attention has long been distracted by the business of the colichemarde because I have certain theories regarding its history that need to be corroborated. If we ignore the earlier variants and concentrate of the typical hollow-ground smallsword style, can anyone provide me with definitive indication of its first appearance; furthermore, can anyone provide proof of their birthplace?

ulfberth · 27th August 2024, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Hello Folks. I have always - instinctively - considered this style of colichemarde to be much earlier that the traditional smallsword variant but, as always, my lack of experience warns me not to make pronouncements until I am certain.
One opinion I proffer is that this style of sword perfectly exemplifies the theory that the pronounced forte was to provide the best of two worlds at a time when regular heavy rapiers and heavier battlefield weapons were a possible opponent.
I understand alternative opinions have been voiced regarding the defence against heavier blade theory... those opinions seem curiously odd.
The appearance of this style of colichemarde is distinctly similar to the thin rapier blades with no possible cutting ability, that were obviously intended - and used - as civilian carry and duelling, but rarely, if ever, battlefield.
It seems obvious to me that the expanded forte was intended to remedy this shortcoming; yet why anyone would wish such a blade on a battlefield, or indeed as a civilian/court carry defies logic. It would certainly not present an attractive look when in its scabbard; the later styles were often considered a bit gross - despite Washington's presidential opinion.
My attention has long been distracted by the business of the colichemarde because I have certain theories regarding its history that need to be corroborated. If we ignore the earlier variants and concentrate of the typical hollow-ground smallsword style, can anyone provide me with definitive indication of its first appearance; furthermore, can anyone provide proof of their birthplace?

This is the best I can do as far as proof goes, its the only pictures ive got left sadly, but the blade was signed " SEBASTIANO HERNANDES" and on the other side " EN TOLEDO" there were two maker marks on each side of the ricasso of of wich i can show you only one clearly.
kind regards
Ulfberth

urbanspaceman · 27th August 2024, 09:34 PM

A beautiful sword. I could not have parted with it.
I notice that it is a verified Hernandes sword: the punzone on the ricasso is definitely his.
One thing I find curious is my cavalier rapier has a blade attributed to Hernandes but without the ricasso markings which leaves it open to suspicion. More to the point, the letter E in the fuller script of my sword is most odd... not unusual, but certainly odd, while yours is quite distinct. Does anyone have any input on this anomaly? Is this oddity something attributed to Germany?

ulfberth · 27th August 2024, 10:16 PM

your blade and the letter E is most certain an older version and probably made in Spain , while the blade in the cup hilt is between 1650 and 1680 and could be German Made , they imitated Spanish blade makers and put Spanish names on it in that period. Also the late 17th c blades have a more plain letter type on them. Than there is the fact that there were more makers named Hernandes over a stretch of 150 year period and certainly more makers using that name.
Blade makers names like CAINO , ANDREA FERRARA are also know of being used by more than one maker because these names were well known and sold good.
kind regards
Ulfberth

10thRoyal · 28th August 2024, 03:22 AM

The swords are in! Very happy with them, though the schiavona guard is loose. That one has a surprisingly heavy blade. The Venetian marine sword is feels great even with the non original grip. The weight and balance on it feel completely correct.

Now the rapier. Incredibly light feeling (which shouldn't be surprising, that's kind of the point). No markings on the blade or stamps on the ricasso. If a stamp is there, it is so light as to be invisible. Blade is forty inches long and transitions from a traditional flat blade to a fine diamond cross section. The thickness of the diamond portion is greater than the flat portion, meaning from the side the thickness actually appears to increase.

ulfberth · 28th August 2024, 09:18 AM

That sounds all good 10th Royal, schiavonas with the blade type like yours feel a bit heavy especialy the longer ones, its an arming sword, the guard a bit loose is also normal many swords and rapiers alike have some movement in the guard.
The cup hilt with the diamond cross section and sligthly thicker after the forte is exactly how these blades should be , these blades were a huge step forward back than and were very difficult to make and by the time more good blade smiths could make them the rapier hilts were almost out of use and the small sword became the weapon of choice. Blade marks or a name on the blade is always exiting and more valuable but its not a must, there are plenty of good blades that were never marked and some for specific reasons.
kind regards
Ulfberth

27th August 2024, 02:08 PM	#2
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 530	Colichemarde history Hello Folks. I have always - instinctively - considered this style of colichemarde to be much earlier that the traditional smallsword variant but, as always, my lack of experience warns me not to make pronouncements until I am certain. One opinion I proffer is that this style of sword perfectly exemplifies the theory that the pronounced forte was to provide the best of two worlds at a time when regular heavy rapiers and heavier battlefield weapons were a possible opponent. I understand alternative opinions have been voiced regarding the defence against heavier blade theory... those opinions seem curiously odd. The appearance of this style of colichemarde is distinctly similar to the thin rapier blades with no possible cutting ability, that were obviously intended - and used - as civilian carry and duelling, but rarely, if ever, battlefield. It seems obvious to me that the expanded forte was intended to remedy this shortcoming; yet why anyone would wish such a blade on a battlefield, or indeed as a civilian/court carry defies logic. It would certainly not present an attractive look when in its scabbard; the later styles were often considered a bit gross - despite Washington's presidential opinion. My attention has long been distracted by the business of the colichemarde because I have certain theories regarding its history that need to be corroborated. If we ignore the earlier variants and concentrate of the typical hollow-ground smallsword style, can anyone provide me with definitive indication of its first appearance; furthermore, can anyone provide proof of their birthplace?

27th August 2024, 09:34 PM	#4
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 530	Cup Colichemarde A beautiful sword. I could not have parted with it. I notice that it is a verified Hernandes sword: the punzone on the ricasso is definitely his. One thing I find curious is my cavalier rapier has a blade attributed to Hernandes but without the ricasso markings which leaves it open to suspicion. More to the point, the letter E in the fuller script of my sword is most odd... not unusual, but certainly odd, while yours is quite distinct. Does anyone have any input on this anomaly? Is this oddity something attributed to Germany? Attached Images

28th August 2024, 03:22 AM	#6
10thRoyal Member Join Date: Apr 2021 Posts: 75	The swords are in! Very happy with them, though the schiavona guard is loose. That one has a surprisingly heavy blade. The Venetian marine sword is feels great even with the non original grip. The weight and balance on it feel completely correct. Now the rapier. Incredibly light feeling (which shouldn't be surprising, that's kind of the point). No markings on the blade or stamps on the ricasso. If a stamp is there, it is so light as to be invisible. Blade is forty inches long and transitions from a traditional flat blade to a fine diamond cross section. The thickness of the diamond portion is greater than the flat portion, meaning from the side the thickness actually appears to increase. Attached Images

26th August 2024, 05:54 PM	#1
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 398	Good Find 10th , that is the Venetian arsenal mark , its found on some schiavonas to, your blade could be variation used in this type and the curved blade is common on naval swords. I always liked these, they show character trough simplicity and even tough they are simple they have a certain elegance about them. kind regards Ulfberth

27th August 2024, 10:16 PM	#5
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 398	your blade and the letter E is most certain an older version and probably made in Spain , while the blade in the cup hilt is between 1650 and 1680 and could be German Made , they imitated Spanish blade makers and put Spanish names on it in that period. Also the late 17th c blades have a more plain letter type on them. Than there is the fact that there were more makers named Hernandes over a stretch of 150 year period and certainly more makers using that name. Blade makers names like CAINO , ANDREA FERRARA are also know of being used by more than one maker because these names were well known and sold good. kind regards Ulfberth

28th August 2024, 09:18 AM	#7
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 398	That sounds all good 10th Royal, schiavonas with the blade type like yours feel a bit heavy especialy the longer ones, its an arming sword, the guard a bit loose is also normal many swords and rapiers alike have some movement in the guard. The cup hilt with the diamond cross section and sligthly thicker after the forte is exactly how these blades should be , these blades were a huge step forward back than and were very difficult to make and by the time more good blade smiths could make them the rapier hilts were almost out of use and the small sword became the weapon of choice. Blade marks or a name on the blade is always exiting and more valuable but its not a must, there are plenty of good blades that were never marked and some for specific reasons. kind regards Ulfberth