Your thoughts on this cup hilt rapier or broadsword?

Jim McDougall · 18th August 2024, 05:02 PM

Thank you Jelle! you are absolutely right, its the historian in me!
This example corresponds well with many of those shown in the threads you linked with great discussions which include salient and important details.

As noted, this example seems to have a hilt somewhat earlier than the blade, but the assembly seem to have been done long ago, probably in the latter 18th century commensurate with the KNECHT blade (c. 1770s). The hilt seems to follow Spanish convention of mid to latter 17th century; the oblate pommel, fluted bone or ivory grip, the cup (taza) resembling the later 'marguerida'(sic) types, no guardopolvo (inner cup plate) of colonial style.

It does not seem unusual for these kinds of assembly as though the small sword via the French was rapidly replacing the rapier, as well as the fencing style. The Spaniards, while in Spain following Bourbon influence, followed suit however in the colonies, tradition prevailed and the beloved cuphilt and its accompanying swordplay, the mysterious destreza remained in place.

In the mid to latter 18th century, many blades were of course provided to Spains colonies from Solingen, most notably the Spanish motto blades I mentioned previously. As KNECHT was a marketer of blades c. 1770 (quite likely earlier) it seems reasonable that he may have provided blades which did not bear the Spanish motto, as these were likely for other markets.
It is tempting to consider this might be a blade issued prior to the 1770 date or perhaps simply to other markets as noted.

Another possibility is that this blade may have gone into the Low Countries as Spain was nominally in rule in Netherlands until 1714, but this would push the date back further than the terminus post quem for Knecht in Solingen.

It seems most references note Peter Knecht of Solingen as working (as a merchant not maker) in 1770, however obviously this is only the matter of record. It seems likely he must have been active prior but hard to say. I made a comment (17 Jan. 21) that the KNEGT family had origins in the Netherlands as early as 1620 (?) later going to Solingen.......also that there was a family member at Shotley Bridge in England (as a grinder) c.1687.
Apparently this was some passim online reference, as I have not found any viable substantiation for those suggestions through authorities and references at hand.

The example of one of these style hilts...most notably with a THUMB RING, suggests this may be a hilt fashioned in the Low Countries by local artisans following the Spanish cup hilt style, and with a KNECHT blade as noted.
I think it quite possible that this blade may be earlier 18th c. and corresponding to the early type hilt, which could be from late 17th c. remounted with the more current blade first half 18th.

Thats just my opinion, forensically, and again, a fascinating example!

18th August 2024, 05:02 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,938	Thank you Jelle! you are absolutely right, its the historian in me! This example corresponds well with many of those shown in the threads you linked with great discussions which include salient and important details. As noted, this example seems to have a hilt somewhat earlier than the blade, but the assembly seem to have been done long ago, probably in the latter 18th century commensurate with the KNECHT blade (c. 1770s). The hilt seems to follow Spanish convention of mid to latter 17th century; the oblate pommel, fluted bone or ivory grip, the cup (taza) resembling the later 'marguerida'(sic) types, no guardopolvo (inner cup plate) of colonial style. It does not seem unusual for these kinds of assembly as though the small sword via the French was rapidly replacing the rapier, as well as the fencing style. The Spaniards, while in Spain following Bourbon influence, followed suit however in the colonies, tradition prevailed and the beloved cuphilt and its accompanying swordplay, the mysterious destreza remained in place. In the mid to latter 18th century, many blades were of course provided to Spains colonies from Solingen, most notably the Spanish motto blades I mentioned previously. As KNECHT was a marketer of blades c. 1770 (quite likely earlier) it seems reasonable that he may have provided blades which did not bear the Spanish motto, as these were likely for other markets. It is tempting to consider this might be a blade issued prior to the 1770 date or perhaps simply to other markets as noted. Another possibility is that this blade may have gone into the Low Countries as Spain was nominally in rule in Netherlands until 1714, but this would push the date back further than the terminus post quem for Knecht in Solingen. It seems most references note Peter Knecht of Solingen as working (as a merchant not maker) in 1770, however obviously this is only the matter of record. It seems likely he must have been active prior but hard to say. I made a comment (17 Jan. 21) that the KNEGT family had origins in the Netherlands as early as 1620 (?) later going to Solingen.......also that there was a family member at Shotley Bridge in England (as a grinder) c.1687. Apparently this was some passim online reference, as I have not found any viable substantiation for those suggestions through authorities and references at hand. The example of one of these style hilts...most notably with a THUMB RING, suggests this may be a hilt fashioned in the Low Countries by local artisans following the Spanish cup hilt style, and with a KNECHT blade as noted. I think it quite possible that this blade may be earlier 18th c. and corresponding to the early type hilt, which could be from late 17th c. remounted with the more current blade first half 18th. Thats just my opinion, forensically, and again, a fascinating example!