Your thoughts on this cup hilt rapier or broadsword?

werecow · 17th August 2024, 04:44 PM

Some threads featuring similar swords, hilt or blade:

A cup hilt rapier for id
Another cup hilt rapier for id
Dissimilar shells rapier... Portuguese?
A sword for comments
Spanish rapier

External links:

ESPADA DE TAZA - (tetralobulada) - siglo XVII
ESPADA DE TAZA - PUGNO PRO PATRIA -siglo XVII

Jim McDougall · 17th August 2024, 10:06 PM

This is wonderful! not just this very exciting example of espada de taza!! but great images as well as the listing of threads pertinent to researching this example! This brings to the fore the fact that for some reason, too many resist using the SEARCH feature here, which has some of the most comprehensive material on most arms topics in the great discussions we have had over the past 25 years.

Im glad you have done that work already by linking some of the most salient of these discussions!! Actually this is FUN! Its like being in a class where the professor literally provides the direct detail for answers!!! yay!

I know you are well seasoned collector, so I appreciate you withholding your own observations, which adds to the suspense, again truly fun and masterful.

Actually this sword fits well into a topic I have researched many years, and involves subject matter of a paper I am presently writing, so even more exciting for me.

This is clearly of Spanish cuphilt of 17th c. form, and of course with all the nuanced variation experienced in these as they were produced by many artisans in locations in Spain, Portugal, and quite possibly many even in the Spanish Netherlands (1556-1714). This example has the character of either colonial or more rural manufacture and seems of latter 17th c.

What brings it more into the colonial realm is that the blade appears to be KNECHT of Solingen. (Wallace Collection, J. Mann, 1962, p.268; p.325, A520, A641).

Johann Peter Knecht was a Solingen trader in blades, not a maker, from 18th c. 1770, his son Peter Knecht was b. 1796 . It is unclear whether he carried forward.
Knecht purveyed the blades carrying the famed 'Spanish motto' which were provided for the Spanish colonies in the Americas from dates unclear in the 18th c., but the 1770s period he is known in business these were well in circulation.
Toledo had been all but defunct for blade making from late 17th c until new production began c.1780s so Solingen had been filling in the gaps.

This is of course an 'arming blade' rather than rapier blade, so more of a sword for a military officer.

As noted in previous discussions, some of which are in the thread bibliography noted, the rapier had largely given way to the small sword in Europe and primarily the French school of fence. However Spain held true to its tradition of the cuphilt form, well into and through the 18th century, even somewhat longer in the colonies of New Spain.

As often seen in the Wallace collection, there are often older hilts mounted with newer blades, and this convention was not exclusive to Spain, but other countries of course as well, typically with officers and those of high station.
This seems the case with this wonderful example of Spanish cuphilt.

werecow · 17th August 2024, 11:49 PM

Thanks Jim! I know you like the patinated ones so I figured you would appreciate this one.

Regarding Knegt/Knecht, does this line start in the late 18th century? The blade markings strike me as slightly older than that (maybe early 18th?). But then I am still very much a novice in pre-19th century blades, and I know Gio Knegt blades are sometimes found on 1728 pattern Bilbao swords, so maybe the worn look on this one is just fooling me... The one on this thread admittedly looks more recent even though it is the same blade. Hmm, maybe I've just talked myself out of the idea that it is earlier.

Jim McDougall · 18th August 2024, 05:02 PM

Thank you Jelle! you are absolutely right, its the historian in me!
This example corresponds well with many of those shown in the threads you linked with great discussions which include salient and important details.

As noted, this example seems to have a hilt somewhat earlier than the blade, but the assembly seem to have been done long ago, probably in the latter 18th century commensurate with the KNECHT blade (c. 1770s). The hilt seems to follow Spanish convention of mid to latter 17th century; the oblate pommel, fluted bone or ivory grip, the cup (taza) resembling the later 'marguerida'(sic) types, no guardopolvo (inner cup plate) of colonial style.

It does not seem unusual for these kinds of assembly as though the small sword via the French was rapidly replacing the rapier, as well as the fencing style. The Spaniards, while in Spain following Bourbon influence, followed suit however in the colonies, tradition prevailed and the beloved cuphilt and its accompanying swordplay, the mysterious destreza remained in place.

In the mid to latter 18th century, many blades were of course provided to Spains colonies from Solingen, most notably the Spanish motto blades I mentioned previously. As KNECHT was a marketer of blades c. 1770 (quite likely earlier) it seems reasonable that he may have provided blades which did not bear the Spanish motto, as these were likely for other markets.
It is tempting to consider this might be a blade issued prior to the 1770 date or perhaps simply to other markets as noted.

Another possibility is that this blade may have gone into the Low Countries as Spain was nominally in rule in Netherlands until 1714, but this would push the date back further than the terminus post quem for Knecht in Solingen.

It seems most references note Peter Knecht of Solingen as working (as a merchant not maker) in 1770, however obviously this is only the matter of record. It seems likely he must have been active prior but hard to say. I made a comment (17 Jan. 21) that the KNEGT family had origins in the Netherlands as early as 1620 (?) later going to Solingen.......also that there was a family member at Shotley Bridge in England (as a grinder) c.1687.
Apparently this was some passim online reference, as I have not found any viable substantiation for those suggestions through authorities and references at hand.

The example of one of these style hilts...most notably with a THUMB RING, suggests this may be a hilt fashioned in the Low Countries by local artisans following the Spanish cup hilt style, and with a KNECHT blade as noted.
I think it quite possible that this blade may be earlier 18th c. and corresponding to the early type hilt, which could be from late 17th c. remounted with the more current blade first half 18th.

Thats just my opinion, forensically, and again, a fascinating example!

17th August 2024, 04:44 PM	#1
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 477	Some threads featuring similar swords, hilt or blade: A cup hilt rapier for id Another cup hilt rapier for id Dissimilar shells rapier... Portuguese? A sword for comments Spanish rapier External links: ESPADA DE TAZA - (tetralobulada) - siglo XVII ESPADA DE TAZA - PUGNO PRO PATRIA -siglo XVII

17th August 2024, 10:06 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,896	This is wonderful! not just this very exciting example of espada de taza!! but great images as well as the listing of threads pertinent to researching this example! This brings to the fore the fact that for some reason, too many resist using the SEARCH feature here, which has some of the most comprehensive material on most arms topics in the great discussions we have had over the past 25 years. Im glad you have done that work already by linking some of the most salient of these discussions!! Actually this is FUN! Its like being in a class where the professor literally provides the direct detail for answers!!! yay! I know you are well seasoned collector, so I appreciate you withholding your own observations, which adds to the suspense, again truly fun and masterful. Actually this sword fits well into a topic I have researched many years, and involves subject matter of a paper I am presently writing, so even more exciting for me. This is clearly of Spanish cuphilt of 17th c. form, and of course with all the nuanced variation experienced in these as they were produced by many artisans in locations in Spain, Portugal, and quite possibly many even in the Spanish Netherlands (1556-1714). This example has the character of either colonial or more rural manufacture and seems of latter 17th c. What brings it more into the colonial realm is that the blade appears to be KNECHT of Solingen. (Wallace Collection, J. Mann, 1962, p.268; p.325, A520, A641). Johann Peter Knecht was a Solingen trader in blades, not a maker, from 18th c. 1770, his son Peter Knecht was b. 1796 . It is unclear whether he carried forward. Knecht purveyed the blades carrying the famed 'Spanish motto' which were provided for the Spanish colonies in the Americas from dates unclear in the 18th c., but the 1770s period he is known in business these were well in circulation. Toledo had been all but defunct for blade making from late 17th c until new production began c.1780s so Solingen had been filling in the gaps. This is of course an 'arming blade' rather than rapier blade, so more of a sword for a military officer. As noted in previous discussions, some of which are in the thread bibliography noted, the rapier had largely given way to the small sword in Europe and primarily the French school of fence. However Spain held true to its tradition of the cuphilt form, well into and through the 18th century, even somewhat longer in the colonies of New Spain. As often seen in the Wallace collection, there are often older hilts mounted with newer blades, and this convention was not exclusive to Spain, but other countries of course as well, typically with officers and those of high station. This seems the case with this wonderful example of Spanish cuphilt.

17th August 2024, 11:49 PM	#3
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 477	Thanks Jim! I know you like the patinated ones so I figured you would appreciate this one. Regarding Knegt/Knecht, does this line start in the late 18th century? The blade markings strike me as slightly older than that (maybe early 18th?). But then I am still very much a novice in pre-19th century blades, and I know Gio Knegt blades are sometimes found on 1728 pattern Bilbao swords, so maybe the worn look on this one is just fooling me... The one on this thread admittedly looks more recent even though it is the same blade. Hmm, maybe I've just talked myself out of the idea that it is earlier.

18th August 2024, 05:02 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,896	Thank you Jelle! you are absolutely right, its the historian in me! This example corresponds well with many of those shown in the threads you linked with great discussions which include salient and important details. As noted, this example seems to have a hilt somewhat earlier than the blade, but the assembly seem to have been done long ago, probably in the latter 18th century commensurate with the KNECHT blade (c. 1770s). The hilt seems to follow Spanish convention of mid to latter 17th century; the oblate pommel, fluted bone or ivory grip, the cup (taza) resembling the later 'marguerida'(sic) types, no guardopolvo (inner cup plate) of colonial style. It does not seem unusual for these kinds of assembly as though the small sword via the French was rapidly replacing the rapier, as well as the fencing style. The Spaniards, while in Spain following Bourbon influence, followed suit however in the colonies, tradition prevailed and the beloved cuphilt and its accompanying swordplay, the mysterious destreza remained in place. In the mid to latter 18th century, many blades were of course provided to Spains colonies from Solingen, most notably the Spanish motto blades I mentioned previously. As KNECHT was a marketer of blades c. 1770 (quite likely earlier) it seems reasonable that he may have provided blades which did not bear the Spanish motto, as these were likely for other markets. It is tempting to consider this might be a blade issued prior to the 1770 date or perhaps simply to other markets as noted. Another possibility is that this blade may have gone into the Low Countries as Spain was nominally in rule in Netherlands until 1714, but this would push the date back further than the terminus post quem for Knecht in Solingen. It seems most references note Peter Knecht of Solingen as working (as a merchant not maker) in 1770, however obviously this is only the matter of record. It seems likely he must have been active prior but hard to say. I made a comment (17 Jan. 21) that the KNEGT family had origins in the Netherlands as early as 1620 (?) later going to Solingen.......also that there was a family member at Shotley Bridge in England (as a grinder) c.1687. Apparently this was some passim online reference, as I have not found any viable substantiation for those suggestions through authorities and references at hand. The example of one of these style hilts...most notably with a THUMB RING, suggests this may be a hilt fashioned in the Low Countries by local artisans following the Spanish cup hilt style, and with a KNECHT blade as noted. I think it quite possible that this blade may be earlier 18th c. and corresponding to the early type hilt, which could be from late 17th c. remounted with the more current blade first half 18th. Thats just my opinion, forensically, and again, a fascinating example!