A different Pamor which is not folded but pasted

A. G. Maisey · 17th August 2024, 12:57 AM

Totally agreed Gustav, I am well aware that there are lot of people who can form opinions based on absolutely no relevant experience at all.

For instance, many politicians can come up with wonderful opinions based upon what they would like to be the fact, but which is not.

I can understand why you, & perhaps other people as well, might think that this Bali blade has been made with pamor miring, I'll tell you why I believe it to be pamor mlumah.

1) if we look carefully at the white lines of contrasting pamor material what we can see is that those lines flow lengthwise along the blade, where a line of white pamor curves, that curve has been caused by the contour of the blade that was created by carving and by hot work manipulation, it has not been caused by twisting.
When a layered bar is twisted, the lines of pamor form angles across the blade, they do not form straight layers of pamor that flow along the blade. You can see this yourself if you select one of the short, straight lines of white pamor, and then move to the other side of the odo-odo and see where that same layer of pamor emerges from the black iron. We can often follow the same line of white pamor along the length of the blade, periodically interrupted where it is covered by black iron.

2) in some places in the body of the blade we can see a continuous exposure of white pamor material, this is pretty obvious on top of, & along, the odo-odo. This feature will not be found in a pamor that has been created by twisting.

3) this particular variation of wos wutah (beras wutah, wosing wutah) is pamor wusing wutah gedhegan, it is only one of the many known variations of wos wutah used in Balinese keris.

4) I have seen this pamor being made, not once, but several times, the contorted lines of pamor are created by surface manipulation, ie, punching and/or filing, this surface manipulation is further altered when the blade is carved.

If we just look at a finished blade it is often extremely difficult to understand how it has been made & how the pamor pattern has been created, but if we have seen enough of that type of blade, and have had the experience of seeing it made, & of making similar patterns ourselves, then it is relatively easy to understand the process that created it.

This difficulty in understanding is not limited to people living outside the areas where we find an active keris culture, there are many people living in keris culture areas who have not the vaguest idea of how a craftsman works, and in reality, the only way to gain that understanding is to learn how to do it yourself. I did not learn to make keris because I wanted to earn my living as a keris maker, my own profession pays very much better than making blades. I spent many years and a great deal of money in learning how to make keris because I wanted to fully understand how this was done. Back in the 1970's & before, the whole thing was still one big, unsolved mystery, and for many people , it still is.

There is a book named "Keris Bali", the author is Ida Bagus Dibia, it was published in 1995. I.B. Dibia was a serious, educated, Balinese gentleman with lengthy & strong interest in keris.

I will not comment on his writings, but I do recommend that if ever you get the opportunity to read this book, then you must do so. The knowledge you will gain from reading this book --- it is tri-lingual, Indonesian, French, English --- will give you some understanding of how far generally available keris knowledge & understanding has progressed in the last 30 years.

For those people who have a good understanding of keris manufacture, a reading of Groneman's "The Javanese Keris" will also demonstrate just how little was understood in the past.

Of course the generalised use of the internet has contributed greatly to this, hours & even days spent in public libraries & museums have now been pruned to asking Dr. Google a few pointed questions.

JustYS · 17th August 2024, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

3) this particular variation of wos wutah (beras wutah, wosing wutah) is pamor wusing wutah gedhegan, it is only one of the many known variations of wos wutah used in Balinese keris.

Hi Alan, could you please kindly explain the term gedhegan?

I have heard the term Gedhagan used by Indonesian dealers to describe pamor that gives illusion that the blade surface is not flat depending on the angle (looks like relief) whereas in reality it is flat.

Looking at the keris in question it does not give this visual illusion so it is either my source is wrong or it can have different meaning?

Thank you.

A. G. Maisey · 17th August 2024, 08:27 AM

Yohan, I have not heard either gedhagen or gedhegan used to describe the type of blade surface you describe, in Solo we call it "nginden" , I personally translate "nginden" as "chatoyant" but I do not know the Javanese meaning except as applied to keris pamor.

In Javanese the word "gedheg" refers to a panel of woven bambu, it can be a fence or a wall made of this. I do not know if the word exists in Balinese, perhaps this variation of wos wutah is being likened to woven bambu, or maybe just the strips of bambu that are woven, but if it is, I cannot see it.

You undoubtedly know the batik motif "nam gedheg", nam refers to the weave, you add gedheg & you have woven bambu. This same motif is used for other art works also, it is a well known pendok motif.

Getting back to the pamor motif, I think 99% of keris people would call this simply wos wutah, there are a very great number of variations of wos wutah pamor, & as far as i can see, nobody knows them all, can identify them all, or consistently name them. I picked up the "gedeghan" addition to the wos wutah from a gentleman I used to know in Solo, he was older than me, he knew more than I did, I figured he was probably right.

As I was just now writing this a thought occurred to me, I've just checked "Keris Bali", the Neka book, the text was written by Basuki Yuwono, who is Javanese and he uses a lot of Javanese terms in his writing, if we go to page 97, we can find an example of wos wutah gedhegan, bottom line of pics, last on right.

JustYS · 17th August 2024, 10:06 AM

Thank you Alan, the woven bamboo surely helps.

Perhaps it was I who misunderstood, what I saw from my source was pamor wos wutah/pedaringan Kebak which has several letter X along the blade and he called it pamor wos wutah/pedaringan kebak gedhagan and it also has this nginden effect. Probably what he meant by gedhagan was the letter X that can be seen as woven pattern.

A. G. Maisey · 17th August 2024, 12:43 PM

Maybe.

Gustav · 17th August 2024, 01:05 PM

Alan, thank you for giving me the honour of a detailed response, which I much appreciate.

I don't think the matter here is as simple as manipulated Wos Wutah.

In the picture with three blue arrows we see a feature, which is one of characteristic patterns for a twisted bar, under the left arrow; under this and both other arrows we see the white Pamor lines crossing the Odo-Odo to the other half of blade, an indication for a twisted bar.

Another such feature we see in the second picture with a single red arrow, which is marking it. At this place too the feature runs over Odo-Odo.

I have not worked with metal, but I have played a lot with two colored plasticine, and so I know as well as you, that besides other quite differently looking phases of a twisted bar (depending how much we take off of it), there is one phase, where a straight line runs through in the middle between the semicircles. In this phase it is possible to have a straight white line running on top of Odo-Odo.

The features we are used to see on blades with twisted bar Pamor will be very difficult to see on a Bali/Lombok blade with Odo-Odo; and it also seems to me, that the approach doing such pattern is different from, let's say, Java. Almost none effort is made to keep the pattern technically recognizeable. It somehow is enough, if "it's there". On the blade Hugh presented, which is an antique blade, the Pamor surely has been further disturbed through Sangling, traces of which we see in the horizontal picture by Hugh.

I happen to be a custodian of an antique Lombok blade with a twisted bar Pamor. The Pamor is a mess, it is clearly recogniseable at the base, in the middle it still displays some phases of a twisted bar appearance, and gets almost completely lost in a Wos Wutah like appearance above the middle (partly, because the bar surely wasn't twisted until the end, partly because of forging out the bar). Added three pictures of it around the middle and abowe it.

I did read Ida Bagus Dibia's book about ten years ago, and haven't had a wish to read it again since then.

A. G. Maisey · 17th August 2024, 01:27 PM

Gustav, I thank you for your explanation.

I have no wish at all to try to convince you that you should adopt my opinion, my own opinion has been been formed by own experience, your opinion has been formed by your experience.

For the people I have known who made this pamor motif, an example of which is present in the blade under discussion, it was just a wos wutah variation. For me it is a wos wutah variation.

You see it as something different, I don't have a problem with that. My intent is not & never has been to convince everybody that my own opinion is always right, I simply share my experience with others in the hope that a bridge might be built between those who do possess knowledge & those who do not.

Let's just let it rest.

Just a quick after thought.

Gustav, could I suggest that you get hold of the book written by Jim Hrisoulas: "The Master Bladesmith"?

For somebody who wishes to gain an understanding of pattern welding, this is a good place to start.

Gustav · 17th August 2024, 02:48 PM

Alan, thank you. Yes, that book is on my wishlist for some time now.

I have read almost everything by Sachse, I have had frequent discussions with a smith here, who works with pattern welding techniques, and he is good in what he does, I have played with plasticine. I have been to many museum magazines since Dresden (which visit I will never forget) and my home is a library. This is from where I come.

HughChen · 17th August 2024, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Gustav, I thank you for your explanation.

I have no wish at all to try to convince you that you should adopt my opinion, my own opinion has been been formed by own experience, your opinion has been formed by your experience.

For the people I have known who made this pamor motif, an example of which is present in the blade under discussion, it was just a wos wutah variation. For me it is a wos wutah variation.

You see it as something different, I don't have a problem with that. My intent is not & never has been to convince everybody that my own opinion is always right, I simply share my experience with others in the hope that a bridge might be built between those who do possess knowledge & those who do not.

Let's just let it rest.

Just a quick after thought.

Gustav, could I suggest that you get hold of the book written by Jim Hrisoulas: "The Master Bladesmith"?

For somebody who wishes to gain an understanding of pattern welding, this is a good place to start.

There are so many professional terms which cannot be found in dictionnary and even the Chat GTP cannot understand. It's very kind of you who can help to explian those terms for new-leaner. Thank you!
1、mlumah
2、Miring
3、Puntiran
4、Odo-Odo
5、wos wutah (beras wutah, wosing wutah)
6、wusing wutah gedhegan
7、nginden chatoyant
8、woven bambu wos wutah
9、atik motif "nam gedheg"

In fact there are much more words I have difficulty in understanding, but I think it's not good to rasit too many quesions at once, and I assume if anyone can help me with above, then maybe other terms will be easy to understand. Thanks!

17th August 2024, 01:05 PM	#6
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,237	Alan, thank you for giving me the honour of a detailed response, which I much appreciate. I don't think the matter here is as simple as manipulated Wos Wutah. In the picture with three blue arrows we see a feature, which is one of characteristic patterns for a twisted bar, under the left arrow; under this and both other arrows we see the white Pamor lines crossing the Odo-Odo to the other half of blade, an indication for a twisted bar. Another such feature we see in the second picture with a single red arrow, which is marking it. At this place too the feature runs over Odo-Odo. I have not worked with metal, but I have played a lot with two colored plasticine, and so I know as well as you, that besides other quite differently looking phases of a twisted bar (depending how much we take off of it), there is one phase, where a straight line runs through in the middle between the semicircles. In this phase it is possible to have a straight white line running on top of Odo-Odo. The features we are used to see on blades with twisted bar Pamor will be very difficult to see on a Bali/Lombok blade with Odo-Odo; and it also seems to me, that the approach doing such pattern is different from, let's say, Java. Almost none effort is made to keep the pattern technically recognizeable. It somehow is enough, if "it's there". On the blade Hugh presented, which is an antique blade, the Pamor surely has been further disturbed through Sangling, traces of which we see in the horizontal picture by Hugh. I happen to be a custodian of an antique Lombok blade with a twisted bar Pamor. The Pamor is a mess, it is clearly recogniseable at the base, in the middle it still displays some phases of a twisted bar appearance, and gets almost completely lost in a Wos Wutah like appearance above the middle (partly, because the bar surely wasn't twisted until the end, partly because of forging out the bar). Added three pictures of it around the middle and abowe it. I did read Ida Bagus Dibia's book about ten years ago, and haven't had a wish to read it again since then. Attached Images

17th August 2024, 12:57 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,855	Totally agreed Gustav, I am well aware that there are lot of people who can form opinions based on absolutely no relevant experience at all. For instance, many politicians can come up with wonderful opinions based upon what they would like to be the fact, but which is not. I can understand why you, & perhaps other people as well, might think that this Bali blade has been made with pamor miring, I'll tell you why I believe it to be pamor mlumah. 1) if we look carefully at the white lines of contrasting pamor material what we can see is that those lines flow lengthwise along the blade, where a line of white pamor curves, that curve has been caused by the contour of the blade that was created by carving and by hot work manipulation, it has not been caused by twisting. When a layered bar is twisted, the lines of pamor form angles across the blade, they do not form straight layers of pamor that flow along the blade. You can see this yourself if you select one of the short, straight lines of white pamor, and then move to the other side of the odo-odo and see where that same layer of pamor emerges from the black iron. We can often follow the same line of white pamor along the length of the blade, periodically interrupted where it is covered by black iron. 2) in some places in the body of the blade we can see a continuous exposure of white pamor material, this is pretty obvious on top of, & along, the odo-odo. This feature will not be found in a pamor that has been created by twisting. 3) this particular variation of wos wutah (beras wutah, wosing wutah) is pamor wusing wutah gedhegan, it is only one of the many known variations of wos wutah used in Balinese keris. 4) I have seen this pamor being made, not once, but several times, the contorted lines of pamor are created by surface manipulation, ie, punching and/or filing, this surface manipulation is further altered when the blade is carved. If we just look at a finished blade it is often extremely difficult to understand how it has been made & how the pamor pattern has been created, but if we have seen enough of that type of blade, and have had the experience of seeing it made, & of making similar patterns ourselves, then it is relatively easy to understand the process that created it. This difficulty in understanding is not limited to people living outside the areas where we find an active keris culture, there are many people living in keris culture areas who have not the vaguest idea of how a craftsman works, and in reality, the only way to gain that understanding is to learn how to do it yourself. I did not learn to make keris because I wanted to earn my living as a keris maker, my own profession pays very much better than making blades. I spent many years and a great deal of money in learning how to make keris because I wanted to fully understand how this was done. Back in the 1970's & before, the whole thing was still one big, unsolved mystery, and for many people , it still is. There is a book named "Keris Bali", the author is Ida Bagus Dibia, it was published in 1995. I.B. Dibia was a serious, educated, Balinese gentleman with lengthy & strong interest in keris. I will not comment on his writings, but I do recommend that if ever you get the opportunity to read this book, then you must do so. The knowledge you will gain from reading this book --- it is tri-lingual, Indonesian, French, English --- will give you some understanding of how far generally available keris knowledge & understanding has progressed in the last 30 years. For those people who have a good understanding of keris manufacture, a reading of Groneman's "The Javanese Keris" will also demonstrate just how little was understood in the past. Of course the generalised use of the internet has contributed greatly to this, hours & even days spent in public libraries & museums have now been pruned to asking Dr. Google a few pointed questions.

17th August 2024, 08:27 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,855	Yohan, I have not heard either gedhagen or gedhegan used to describe the type of blade surface you describe, in Solo we call it "nginden" , I personally translate "nginden" as "chatoyant" but I do not know the Javanese meaning except as applied to keris pamor. In Javanese the word "gedheg" refers to a panel of woven bambu, it can be a fence or a wall made of this. I do not know if the word exists in Balinese, perhaps this variation of wos wutah is being likened to woven bambu, or maybe just the strips of bambu that are woven, but if it is, I cannot see it. You undoubtedly know the batik motif "nam gedheg", nam refers to the weave, you add gedheg & you have woven bambu. This same motif is used for other art works also, it is a well known pendok motif. Getting back to the pamor motif, I think 99% of keris people would call this simply wos wutah, there are a very great number of variations of wos wutah pamor, & as far as i can see, nobody knows them all, can identify them all, or consistently name them. I picked up the "gedeghan" addition to the wos wutah from a gentleman I used to know in Solo, he was older than me, he knew more than I did, I figured he was probably right. As I was just now writing this a thought occurred to me, I've just checked "Keris Bali", the Neka book, the text was written by Basuki Yuwono, who is Javanese and he uses a lot of Javanese terms in his writing, if we go to page 97, we can find an example of wos wutah gedhegan, bottom line of pics, last on right.

17th August 2024, 10:06 AM	#4
JustYS Member Join Date: Apr 2019 Posts: 138	Thank you Alan, the woven bamboo surely helps. Perhaps it was I who misunderstood, what I saw from my source was pamor wos wutah/pedaringan Kebak which has several letter X along the blade and he called it pamor wos wutah/pedaringan kebak gedhagan and it also has this nginden effect. Probably what he meant by gedhagan was the letter X that can be seen as woven pattern.

17th August 2024, 12:43 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,855	Maybe.

17th August 2024, 01:27 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,855	Gustav, I thank you for your explanation. I have no wish at all to try to convince you that you should adopt my opinion, my own opinion has been been formed by own experience, your opinion has been formed by your experience. For the people I have known who made this pamor motif, an example of which is present in the blade under discussion, it was just a wos wutah variation. For me it is a wos wutah variation. You see it as something different, I don't have a problem with that. My intent is not & never has been to convince everybody that my own opinion is always right, I simply share my experience with others in the hope that a bridge might be built between those who do possess knowledge & those who do not. Let's just let it rest. Just a quick after thought. Gustav, could I suggest that you get hold of the book written by Jim Hrisoulas: "The Master Bladesmith"? For somebody who wishes to gain an understanding of pattern welding, this is a good place to start.

17th August 2024, 02:48 PM	#8
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,237	Alan, thank you. Yes, that book is on my wishlist for some time now. I have read almost everything by Sachse, I have had frequent discussions with a smith here, who works with pattern welding techniques, and he is good in what he does, I have played with plasticine. I have been to many museum magazines since Dresden (which visit I will never forget) and my home is a library. This is from where I come.