Two Bali Hilt ID

[HughChen]

Hello everyone,
I'm new to this forum, and it's very happy for me to be able to discuss about keris with you.

I have two Bali Kerises and them have different hilts. I have asked some local Local craftsmen， but different people give me different answer.

[HughChen]

Some one told me the first hilt is Bayu, another craftsman told me is's Vishnu. For the second hilt, I cannot understand totally.

[milandro]

the first is very often identified as Batara Bayu , although this one seems to miss some elements ( in the right hand there should be an object which some call a vessel and others a mirro) which identify this as such . This is the balinese version of an Hindu god of the winds.

I am afraid that these hilts vary greatly in quality. I had one too and at some point I sold it because I wasn't convinced that it would be nicely fitting the kris it was on.


The second hilt, I am afraid, is of a type that equips very often krises made for the tourist market and , I believe is of no great quality at all.

[HughChen]

Originally Posted by milandro

the first is very often identified as Batara Bayu , although this one seems to miss some elements ( in the right hand there should be an object which some call a vessel and others a mirro) which identify this as such . This is the balinese version of an Hindu god of the winds.

I am afraid that these hilts vary greatly in quality. I had one too and at some point I sold it because I wasn't convinced that it would be nicely fitting the kris it was on.


The second hilt, I am afraid, is of a type that equips very often krises made for the tourist market and , I believe is of no great quality at all.

Hello Milandro， Thanks you for your answer.

What elements of the first do you think make it a Batara Bayu? I have searched a lot and never seen a same Batara Bayu like this one.

For the second one, An antique appraiser tells me it's undoubtably more than 100 years old. But he is not an expert on Keris so I really need more imformation.

[Sajen]

The first hilt is rather nice but it's not what collectors call Bayu, please compare to three of my hilts. But I can't name it, sorry. A priest or a king? Another god? The Bayu hilts I've seen, had or handled had fangs, your hilt with its pictured person doesn't have fangs. I just don't know. Mr. van Veenendaal is not with us anymore so I can't ask him. Maybe Alan has an idea!?

The second hilt is a monster! I've commented on the complete keris before. I hope Alan can tell us something about this sort of keris, like I said in the other thread, I've seen similar keris before, I never had such a keris so I never had an interest to know more about these types.

Regards,
Detlef

[HughChen]

Originally Posted by Sajen

The first hilt is rather nice but it's not what collectors call Bayu, please compare to three of my hilts. But I can't name it, sorry. A priest or a king? Another god? The Bayu hilts I've seen, had or handled had fangs, your hilt with its pictured person doesn't have fangs. I just don't know. Mr. van Veenendaal is not with us anymore so I can't ask him. Maybe Alan has an idea!?

The second hilt is a monster! I've commented on the complete keris before. I hope Alan can tell us something about this sort of keris, like I said in the other thread, I've seen similar keris before, I never had such a keris so I never had an interest to know more about these types.

Regards,
Detlef

Thank you, Detlef
Your hilts are very beautiful. Whether the inlays on your hilts are natural gemstones or glass?

I have two wooden hilts in my collection, they are much more abstract.

[Interested Party]

I really like the middle guy Detlef. In my mind the key to identify the common Bayu icon, the god of wind and breath, is the object he holds in his right hand. It contains the amrita, or an elixir of eternal life. Maybe a message on how important breathing exercises were considered in Hindu/Buddhist, and Taoist cultures.

[A. G. Maisey]

The Balinese hilt is one of the multitude of variations of the Prabu model, 'Prabu' or 'Prabhu' means king, lord, emperor.

[HughChen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The Balinese hilt is one of the multitude of variations of the Prabu model, 'Prabu' or 'Prabhu' means king, lord, emperor.

Thank you, Maisey

Do you mean this hilt is not a specific reference to a specific person or god？ How can we find other variations of the Prabu model?

[A. G. Maisey]

No, it is not a reference to a specific person or dewa.

The style of all Bali keris hilts varies from time to time & from maker to maker, there are certain indicators or attributes that permit us to relate the hilt to an overall style.

This hilt appears to have a crown, and as far as I can see, no other attribute, so then we ask:- who wears a crown?

There are numerous examples of the prabhu form in published works.

[HughChen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

No, it is not a reference to a specific person or dewa.

The style of all Bali keris hilts varies from time to time & from maker to maker, there are certain indicators or attributes that permit us to relate the hilt to an overall style.

This hilt appears to have a crown, and as far as I can see, no other attribute, so then we ask:- who wears a crown?

There are numerous examples of the prabhu form in published works.

Thank you Maisey. One more question, what's the meaning of making a hilt as a king statue? I thought ordinary they should be certain god or demon.

[milandro]

Originally Posted by HughChen

Hello Milandro， Thanks you for your answer.

What elements of the first do you think make it a Batara Bayu? I have searched a lot and never seen a same Batara Bayu like this one.

For the second one, An antique appraiser tells me it's undoubtably more than 100 years old. But he is not an expert on Keris so I really need more imformation.

The figure may very well not be Batara Bayu since , as I noted, he doesn't have to vessel (some people call it a mirror but it isn't) in his hands.


This is important to derive hits characteristics.

I have seen people describing similar hilts with depictions of Bhima calling it Bayu too.



The wooden hilts in your possession are the one on the left a Bugis hilt and the one on the right a Sumatran (Palembang?) hilt often referred to as a veiled Durga (although there is much debate on whether this is truly a representation of Durga or not)

Unfortunately, I don't hold the second hilt in any kind esteem at all. In my mind it is a kind of hilt found on krises for the tourist market.

[HughChen]

Originally Posted by milandro

The figure may very well not be Batara Bayu since , as I noted, he doesn't have to vessel (some people call it a mirror but it isn't) in his hands.


This is important to derive hits characteristics.

I have seen people describing similar hilts with depictions of Bhima calling it Bayu too.



The wooden hilts in your possession are the one on the left a Bugis hilt and the one on the right a Sumatran (Palembang?) hilt often referred to as a veiled Durga (although there is much debate on whether this is truly a representation of Durga or not)

Unfortunately, I don't hold the second hilt in any kind esteem at all. In my mind it is a kind of hilt found on krises for the tourist market.

Thank you Milandro. The second hilt is ugly to me, that's why I presumed it's for some local rural purpose like ceremony or so when I purchased it. The reason was that tourists tend to buy beautiful hilts. But I didn't know just guessed.

[JustYS]

Originally Posted by HughChen

Thank you, Maisey

Do you mean this hilt is not a specific reference to a specific person or god？ How can we find other variations of the Prabu model?

Welcome to the forum HughChen.

I believe this is one of the variations of Prabu:

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by JustYS

I believe this is one of the variations of Prabu:

Interesting. To me it has the same right arm position as the Jawa Demam.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by HughChen

Your hilts are very beautiful. Whether the inlays on your hilts are natural gemstones or glass?

I have two wooden hilts in my collection, they are much more abstract.

Thank you HC! I think that most of the stones are real stones.

One of your hilts is Bugis and the other one from Sumatra.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

I really like the middle guy Detlef.

Thank you IP!

[A. G. Maisey]

YS, is that a crown or a crab claw hair style?

[JustYS]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

YS, is that a crown or a crab claw hair style?

Hi Alan,

I guess it is sort of hair ornament like in wayang?

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Yohan, that's what I was looking for, but what i think I can see in your hilt is still unclear to me, I'm not sure what I'm looking at. I expected to see either a distinct crown or a distinct "crab claw" type noble hair style, in the hilt I'm not sure if it is supposed to be one or the other.

However, if it is a crown, the hilt is Prabhu style, if it is a hairstyle we need to match it to a wayang hair style --- maybe the "crab claw" & then look for other attributes that might permit us to affix a name, say, FX, Arjuna.

[HughChen]

Can anyone tells if the first keris is gilded with gold or brass? I think it should be gold, because for so many years it hasn't be corrupted.

[David]

Originally Posted by HughChen

Can anyone tells if the first keris is gilded with gold or brass? I think it should be gold, because for so many years it hasn't be corrupted.

Often these hilts are brass with a gold wash or gilt. This applies a thinning layer of gold than plating, filling or electroplating, which is why in older examples it can be seen as wearing off and revealing the brass base metal. You can see this in my example below.

[HughChen]

Originally Posted by David

Often these hilts are brass with a gold wash or gilt. This applies a thinning layer of gold than plating, filling or electroplating, which is why in older examples it can be seen as wearing off and revealing the brass base metal. You can see this in my example below.

Thank you David !