"Early" Moro kris

Ian · 7th August 2024, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Here are examples of Indonesian kris sundang with asana-asang

Hi Jose, I would have placed these as Malay in origin. What features speak to you that these are Indonesian?

Battara · 8th August 2024, 06:05 AM

Perhaps I'm missing something, but Malay and Indonesian sundang are virtually the same.

Ian · 8th August 2024, 06:36 AM

I was referring to Melayu or other ethnicities/regions now considered part of Malaysia. Are you using "Malay" as a generic term for Malay people, defined broadly?

Battara · 9th August 2024, 02:51 AM

Now that I think of it, I guess I mistakenly was using it as a broader term. I guess I need to do a better job of definition.

Ian · 13th August 2024, 10:23 AM

Jose, I'm looking at the second of four examples you show of non-Moro kris. This one is dressed in a distinctly non-Moro fashion, which I think originates from somewhere in what is now Malaysia. The blade (from what I can see of it—there appears to be a lot of active rust) does have an "arrow head" feature that is highly correlated with Moro manufacture. So this looks like a Moro blade (probably from the Sulu Archipelago) that has been owned by a Malaysian.

Your first example might also be an old Sulu blade, redressed in a Malaysian fashion.

The last two are completely non-Moro in origin.

Battara · 13th August 2024, 11:41 PM

I agree. Lots of trade within the region.

Ian · 14th August 2024, 01:44 PM

Looking at old fighting versions of Moro kris, I believe this one is a no-frills example from no later than the early-mid 19th C. The gandik area suggests that this is a Maranao blade. There are no sogokan or blumbangan.

The blade length is 48.0 cm (19.0 in) and OAL is 58.8 cm (23.1 in). The ivory kakatua pommel with side panel is diminutive, measuring just under 3.8 cm (1.5 in.) from tip of the "beak" to tip of the "crest."

The scabbard has a nice old banati wood cross piece, but the remainder of the scabbard has been replaced with an unattractive hardwood. The scabbard toe is tilted up and the corresponding smaller back piece has broken off. This is an old scabbard style.

Indicators of age are the relatively short blade, the diminutive pommel, and the scabbard style.
.

14th August 2024, 01:44 PM	#7
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,167	Looking at old fighting versions of Moro kris, I believe this one is a no-frills example from no later than the early-mid 19th C. The gandik area suggests that this is a Maranao blade. There are no sogokan or blumbangan. The blade length is 48.0 cm (19.0 in) and OAL is 58.8 cm (23.1 in). The ivory kakatua pommel with side panel is diminutive, measuring just under 3.8 cm (1.5 in.) from tip of the "beak" to tip of the "crest." The scabbard has a nice old banati wood cross piece, but the remainder of the scabbard has been replaced with an unattractive hardwood. The scabbard toe is tilted up and the corresponding smaller back piece has broken off. This is an old scabbard style. Indicators of age are the relatively short blade, the diminutive pommel, and the scabbard style. . Attached Images

8th August 2024, 06:05 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,200	Perhaps I'm missing something, but Malay and Indonesian sundang are virtually the same.

8th August 2024, 06:36 AM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,167	I was referring to Melayu or other ethnicities/regions now considered part of Malaysia. Are you using "Malay" as a generic term for Malay people, defined broadly?

9th August 2024, 02:51 AM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,200	Now that I think of it, I guess I mistakenly was using it as a broader term. I guess I need to do a better job of definition.

13th August 2024, 10:23 AM	#5
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,167	Jose, I'm looking at the second of four examples you show of non-Moro kris. This one is dressed in a distinctly non-Moro fashion, which I think originates from somewhere in what is now Malaysia. The blade (from what I can see of it—there appears to be a lot of active rust) does have an "arrow head" feature that is highly correlated with Moro manufacture. So this looks like a Moro blade (probably from the Sulu Archipelago) that has been owned by a Malaysian. Your first example might also be an old Sulu blade, redressed in a Malaysian fashion. The last two are completely non-Moro in origin.

13th August 2024, 11:41 PM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,200	I agree. Lots of trade within the region.