Identification of rapier

[Tordenskiold1721]

I noted his version corresponded to what I had already learned.
I was severely reprimanded, with his saying if I had told him that in the first place it would have saved him weeks of research.

Your story is not an uncommon way to confirm research on items that some times can be complex.

I usually leave out the part were the assisting expertise confirmed my own research, and give full credit to the one that helped me confirm or sent me on a better path.

It is an approach that has worked well for me, and it makes good people feel good about their good work. Lets call it being tactful

Christian IV(1588–1648) mounted on his horse with the riding sword posted further up in this post in hand:

[Jim McDougall]

That sounds fair Tordenskiold, I suppose each must follow their own protocols.
For this case, I would never have even thought of Denmark, but felt sure that either German or possibly Italian forms were at hand.

As you held the 'ace in hand' with the information that the sword belonged to Christian IV of Denmark, and asked 'what it was'? and who made it? there was no benchmark or clue to start with and as the form is far from common (as noted in Norman) I honestly had no idea where to start.

Luckily I have resources; Valentine, Norman, Boccia & Coelho; Oakeshott etc. and Wallace Collection, so it took literally going through all of these to discover the information I shared with you. As the form clearly had nothing to do with Denmark in the first place, the information you held was moot, so of no consequence.

As you say, being tactful........I do feel good about what I discovered, so thank you. It is a most interesting sword, and I learned from it.

Best regards
Jim

[Tordenskiold1721]

Italian forms were at hand.

You were resonating correctly Jim ! Christian IV(1588-1648) was possibly influenced by his Italian fencing teacher Salvator Fabris(1544-1617). Whom wrote the first fencing manual written in Denmark in honor of Christian IV. Presented in 1605 and printed in two volumes in 1606. Scroll down to 1:2 and the history of fencing master Salvator Fabris and how he ended up as Christian IV's fencing teacher is well explained:

chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.redalyc.org/pdf/6639/663972473002.pdf

We do find the type of pommel that we see on Christian IV’s Knighthood rapier in Norway who was part of Denmark from the wars that lead to the breakup of the Kalmar Union 1387 - 1523.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalmar_Union

Rapier with likely provenance back to early 17th century in Norway. It is easy to imagine that the King set the style for the upper class/nobility and that they copied their sovereigns style as was common in the renaissance. This example is likely imported from Sothern Europe were identical examples can be found. We find a handful in Norway surviving up until today.

Thank you for your valuable and on target comments Jim ! I see we use the same literature

Best regards,

Arne

[Tordenskiold1721]

Salvatore Fabris(1544-1617) fencing manual:

https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Salvator_Fabris

[Tordenskiold1721]

Adding some examples with similar pommels for military use in Norwegian museums collections:

https://digitaltmuseum.no/021027299073/karde

https://digitaltmuseum.no/011023246716/karde

https://digitaltmuseum.no/011023252922/karde

[Jim McDougall]

As they say here in Texas, 'well...there ya go!'
It has always been fascinating to see how widely Italian influences in arms and armor predominated throughout Europe, and of course fencing in particular. Honestly, as I had noted, I had never thought of these influences reaching into Northern Europe.
This is the best part of these kinds of discussion here, the learning

Thank you Arne for sharing all of this information on this sword, and as you have shown, we learn a great deal on history THROUGH the weapons themselves. We do indeed rely on the same literature!

All best regards,
Jim

[Tordenskiold1721]

Thank you Jim for your information on rapiers in this style !

You mentioned the example in the Wallace Collection. It belongs in this thread:

https://wallacelive.wallacecollectio...ype=detailView

[Tordenskiold1721]

I noticed that Christian IV portrait further up in this thread with him on his war horse with his riding sword also shows him carrying his Danish made wheellock pistols, that saw a few wars with him. Currently on display in Copenhagen. I took this photo three weeks ago:

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Tordenskiold1721

Thank you Jim for your information on rapiers in this style !

You mentioned the example in the Wallace Collection. It belongs in this thread:

https://wallacelive.wallacecollectio...ype=detailView

Wow! well done Arne.............it isnt pictured in the book.