"Early" Moro kris

[Ian]

Originally Posted by David

Ian, I agree with you that this is a Moro blade, but aside from the somewhat unusual ferrule i don't really see anything in particular that would place this hilt in Malay culture. Also, most Malay Peninsula Sundangs don't have asang asang.
If the horizontal lines you are referring to are the ones on the front of the gonjo (gangya in Moro terms), these lines are indeed often present in Javanese keris of the Banten period (16-17th century) as well as Balinese keris.
But you can also find these lines on well made Moro kris from the late 19th century.

David,

Thank you very much for this reply. As far as a Malay attribution, I believe there are Malay blades that have asang asang. Whether these are Malay blades repurposed by Moros, or Malay blades made for Malays that have asang asang, is unclear. See also here. As I look at what I believe to be Malay sundang blades, these tend to be straight and a little wider than most Moro sundang, and usually have a central groove that runs almost the length of the blade. Is that your experience also?

I would reference the blade for item A-9 (in the panoply above, post #8) as being in the Malay style but perhaps of Moro manufacture. It has a central groove with a double-chevron, twist-core pattern, and an atypical gold (?) hilt, which appears to have been restricted to high nobility owners. There are pictures of Datu Piang and a Maguindanao Sultan having swords with similar hilts. Our fellow forumite, Battara, has another example with the same hilt style that he posted here a long time ago.

I have not seen Malay sundang with classical sogokan or blumbangan, although longitudinal ridges and grooves starting adjacent to the gangya and running various lengths down the blade seem common. Looking at hilts on Malay sundang, I find them sometimes hard to distinguish from Sulu hilts. A small round ferrule, perhaps imitating a mendek, appears to be a consistent feature on Malay sundang, as well as a somewhat "fatter" grip section often bound with cord and sometimes segmented into three sections by raised metal rings. Most Malay sundang appear to be crowned by a simple kakatua pommel with side panels, with ivory being a common material. Please tell me if I am mistaken about any of these features.

The picture you posted appears to be a Sulu or Maguindanao sundang showing twin lines below the concave edge of the gandik, and another pair of lines at the bottom end of the gangya (cocor). It is interesting that you note these styles present on 16-17th C Javanese keris. This helps, I think, in understanding why some of the so-called "archaic Moro kris" show these features fairly consistently.

Could you post pictures of a 16-17th Javanese kris showing these lines below the gandik and on the gangya?

Thanks David.

Regards,

Ian.

[David]

Originally Posted by Ian

Could you post pictures of a 16-17th Javanese kris showing these lines below the gandik and on the gangya?

Sorry Ian, i had missed your question. Here are a couple of examples. I can add more when i find them.

[Battara]

Here are examples of Indonesian kris sundang with asana-asang

[Battara]

Here is one of mine. It is ivory, swassa, and silver. Not much of a pamor in the blade. I believe this is from Tawi-Tawi.

[Ian]

Originally Posted by Battara

Here are examples of Indonesian kris sundang with asana-asang

Hi Jose, I would have placed these as Malay in origin. What features speak to you that these are Indonesian?

[Battara]

Perhaps I'm missing something, but Malay and Indonesian sundang are virtually the same.

[Ian]

I was referring to Melayu or other ethnicities/regions now considered part of Malaysia. Are you using "Malay" as a generic term for Malay people, defined broadly?

[Battara]

Now that I think of it, I guess I mistakenly was using it as a broader term. I guess I need to do a better job of definition.