Question regarding the origin of the grip construction on these European style swords

[Sakalord364]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The dates you note seem to be correct, and indeed the British were no longer occupying Afghan regions formally, but retained suzerainty while providing notable subsidy in various areas.

I am curious, you assert that the Afghans by virtue of the advanced manufacturing equipment were fully capable of producing these heavy, notably uniquely channeled blades by 1893....which seems the earliest date known for these military swords........have you found evidence that this equipment included that for producing sword blades? Most images I have seen of the factory works show the production of the Enfield rifles. The emphasis on the rifle production had once compelled me to think the similarity of the hilts design and construction aligned with that of British bayonets, but that notion also remains unproven.

As far as I am aware, the production lines at Machin Khana were geared toward production of Enfield rifles. I am unaware of such fullering on blades for swords of this type, except perhaps for European forces such as sappers, miners and artillery gunners. It seems I had heard suggestions these Afghan swords were intended for gunners, but they also have been suggested for other issue.

There were other shops in the area of the Machin Khana as I have understood which might have conducted assembly of these swords, and as they were accepted by the arsenal the state stamp of Mazir i Sharif placed on the blades. This seems likely given the fact that tribal Khyber blades are found with these hilts, and state stamped accordingly......the are Gurkha kukris known also stamped with the Mazir i Sharif mark, and obviously not produced there.

BTW, do you have Dmitry Milerosov's 2019 book on Afghan weapons?

Photo-my example date 1893

I might also add that the design of these sword blades is unique, and so are the hilts, being a combination of some generic British handle with an Indian style finger guard. Then again the Afghan shashka is also unique to Afghanistan- the late 19th century was a very interesting time in the world of Afghan edged weapons- it would have been exceedingly simple for the Afghan ruler to draw up a contract with Wilkinson or whatever manufacturing house to provide him with all the swords and bayonets he needed but he seems to have made an effort to make it all domestically.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Sakalord364

I might also add that the design of these sword blades is unique, and so are the hilts, being a combination of some generic British handle with an Indian style finger guard. Then again the Afghan shashka is also unique to Afghanistan- the late 19th century was a very interesting time in the world of Afghan edged weapons- it would have been exceedingly simple for the Afghan ruler to draw up a contract with Wilkinson or whatever manufacturing house to provide him with all the swords and bayonets he needed but he seems to have made an effort to make it all domestically.

This is all exceptional information, and much appreciated, you are clearly very well informed. Honestly I am delighted to find that these edged weapons (and thank you for the itemized list) were indeed made at the Machin Khana. I had never been able to find proof that was the case.
As ALWAYS, the emphasis is on guns with edged weapons seldom meriting mention as with most military oriented literature.

I am thrilled to hear of this upcoming book, and hope you will keep us informed on how to obtain when released. I presume though the focus is on firearms, the details on swords regardless how minimal are mentioned as suggested.

Good to know these blades on the Afghan military swords are unique as I had suspected, so your confirmation is appreciated. Also that the hilts were based on some British design (I had mentioned similarity to a sword bayonet hilt). I once tried to reach Wilkinson to discover if they in fact had any part in these hilts being so close to bayonet style, but no useful response was forthcoming.
In these times Wilkinson had plenty of contracts supplying India as well as Abyssinia, so it does not seem it would have been a problem, but if the Khan chose otherwise.

The Afghan shashka would of course have been unique to Afghanistan, however these have often been deemed Uzbek, which is rather a vague differentiation which I have yet to follow the particulars. Note fluted scabbard component similar to those on paluoars.

If the British pattern bayonets were being produced there, wonder if the components were interchangeable for the grip, pommel, and ferrule?
Some of these military hilts have had different guards, and on occasion it seems similar to paluoar types.

[Sakalord364]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

This is all exceptional information, and much appreciated, you are clearly very well informed. Honestly I am delighted to find that these edged weapons (and thank you for the itemized list) were indeed made at the Machin Khana. I had never been able to find proof that was the case.
As ALWAYS, the emphasis is on guns with edged weapons seldom meriting mention as with most military oriented literature.

I am thrilled to hear of this upcoming book, and hope you will keep us informed on how to obtain when released. I presume though the focus is on firearms, the details on swords regardless how minimal are mentioned as suggested.

Good to know these blades on the Afghan military swords are unique as I had suspected, so your confirmation is appreciated. Also that the hilts were based on some British design (I had mentioned similarity to a sword bayonet hilt). I once tried to reach Wilkinson to discover if they in fact had any part in these hilts being so close to bayonet style, but no useful response was forthcoming.
In these times Wilkinson had plenty of contracts supplying India as well as Abyssinia, so it does not seem it would have been a problem, but if the Khan chose otherwise.

The Afghan shashka would of course have been unique to Afghanistan, however these have often been deemed Uzbek, which is rather a vague differentiation which I have yet to follow the particulars. Note fluted scabbard component similar to those on paluoars.

If the British pattern bayonets were being produced there, wonder if the components were interchangeable for the grip, pommel, and ferrule?
Some of these military hilts have had different guards, and on occasion it seems similar to paluoar types.

Yes your shashka is Afghan, Uzbek shashkas had completely different handles. Factory made Afghan shashkas were spartan, wooden handled weapons that the government issued, and had scabbards with plain metal fittings. Officers on the other hand could go to a local swordmaker and have a more elaborate specimen made for himself, as fancy as his purse would allow. Your example with its horn handle and decorated fittings is a non factory made piece. That chape design seems to be the signature of late 19th to early 20th century Afghan silversmiths ( IÂ’m assuming that a separate silversmith would make fittings, I donÂ’t know if that was the case with European sword cutlers)

Basically officers could private purchase more elaborate swords to wear, as long as it matched whatever the standard issue prototype was roughly. I wonder if such a policy still existed at the same time in Europe, or if by the mid 19th century officers were only allowed to wear government issue swords

[Rick]

I have put this question out here before and no one seems to know.

I have to ask; have you ever seen this marking on the guard of the short sword?

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks very much for the assessment on my shashka! Years ago when I got it, both Torben Flindt and Iaroslav Lebedynsky agreed on same, it was Afghan, but no specifics.
Might you have examples or photos of an Uzbek version for comparison?

In looking in the example in your post #3, with the apparently faux Star of Solomon used on Wilkinson sword blades for officers.....the guard design seems to be in the manner of the British officers 'honeysuckle hilt' for heavy cavalry officers and other variations.