Cup-hilted rapier for comments

mariusgmioc · 2nd July 2024, 06:59 PM

Hello!
This rapier is my latest acquisition and I am eager to know your opinions about it, whether positive or negative.

Radboud · 2nd July 2024, 08:28 PM

What a lovely sword, congratulations on such a fine example.

Jim McDougall · 2nd July 2024, 11:31 PM

Breathtaking Marius!
This is an authentic Spanish cuphilt in the style of mid 17th c. as pictured in "Rapiers" by Eric Valentine (Stackpole, 1968) examples 38 and 39.
The oblate pommel and guard is correct, wonderful guardapolvo (inside cup) and the blade typical diamond section.
Most blades by this time were German produced using spuriously placed names of famed Toledo makers....in the two examples in Valentine one with Tomas Aiala the other Sebastian Hernandez.

Any possibility of close up of these markings on the blade? These are the kinds of magic/occult type sigils and devices popular on Spanish blades and also copied by German smiths.

Chris Evans · 3rd July 2024, 02:23 AM

Hi Marius,

What a beautiful sword, congratulations!

How long is the blade? From the pics it seems rather short...

Cheers
Chris

mariusgmioc · 3rd July 2024, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

Hi Marius,

What a beautiful sword, congratulations!

How long is the blade? From the pics it seems rather short...

Cheers
Chris

Overall length is 114 cm, which is reasonably good for this type and age albeit it may have lost a couple of centimeters to successive sharpening and repairs.

Anyhow, the geometry of the blade (slightly broader than later types) appears to indicate late 16th to early 17th century, I guess...

No idea about markings but I may post more as soon as I receive it and get better photos. I am also very curious of any punch marks on the ricasso.

Jim McDougall · 3rd July 2024, 08:10 PM

It seems that the overall length noted on this example (44 inches) corresponds exactly to the cuphilt I have.

Jim McDougall · 3rd July 2024, 08:16 PM

Any thoughts on markings?

Chris Evans · Yesterday, 05:10 AM

Hi Marius,

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Overall length is 114 cm, which is reasonably good for this type and age albeit it may have lost a couple of centimeters to successive sharpening and repairs.

Anyhow, the geometry of the blade (slightly broader than later types) appears to indicate late 16th to early 17th century, I guess...

No idea about markings but I may post more as soon as I receive it and get better photos. I am also very curious of any punch marks on the ricasso.

Much appreciated!

Cheers
Chris

fernando · Yesterday, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

... I am also very curious of any punch marks on the ricasso...

Like Toledan smiths used to do

.

Jim McDougall · Yesterday, 03:54 PM

Into the ether

The reason I am curious on the marks in the linear sequence on the blade rather than the usual makers name is they might have more esoteric meaning. Whether authentic or spuriously applied by German smiths,these are remarkably similar to some Milanese makers marks as well as some of the 'anchor' marks used by Toledo makers (i.e. Alonso Perez, late 16th, et al).
The others resemble some occult/magic markings which were often used in inscriptions, names etc. on blades by Toledo smiths (Wagner, 1967).

The Spanish method of swordplay was the mysterious system of 'destreza' or'the' Spanish Fight', (Aylward, 1945; Castle, 1885) which was based on geometric, mathematical, philosophical and occult principles. The weapon of choice was of course, the rapier, and while in the earlier years, very long blades were de riguer, however in time 'shorter' blades became favored (i.e. these 37" examples).

I think it may be possible that a series of marks similar to established ones used in Milan and Toledo on blades, coupled with magic type sigils might allude to a swordsmans knowledge and skills in destreza, and may have been applied in these sequences suggesting such esoteric connection.

Just thoughts.

2nd July 2024, 06:59 PM	#1
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,893	Cup-hilted rapier for comments Hello! This rapier is my latest acquisition and I am eager to know your opinions about it, whether positive or negative. Attached Images

2nd July 2024, 08:28 PM	#2
Radboud Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 244	Wonderful! What a lovely sword, congratulations on such a fine example.

2nd July 2024, 11:31 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,821	Breathtaking Marius! This is an authentic Spanish cuphilt in the style of mid 17th c. as pictured in "Rapiers" by Eric Valentine (Stackpole, 1968) examples 38 and 39. The oblate pommel and guard is correct, wonderful guardapolvo (inside cup) and the blade typical diamond section. Most blades by this time were German produced using spuriously placed names of famed Toledo makers....in the two examples in Valentine one with Tomas Aiala the other Sebastian Hernandez. Any possibility of close up of these markings on the blade? These are the kinds of magic/occult type sigils and devices popular on Spanish blades and also copied by German smiths.

3rd July 2024, 02:23 AM	#4
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 675	Hi Marius, What a beautiful sword, congratulations! How long is the blade? From the pics it seems rather short... Cheers Chris

3rd July 2024, 08:10 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,821	It seems that the overall length noted on this example (44 inches) corresponds exactly to the cuphilt I have.

3rd July 2024, 08:16 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,821	Any thoughts on markings?

Yesterday, 03:54 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,821	Into the ether The reason I am curious on the marks in the linear sequence on the blade rather than the usual makers name is they might have more esoteric meaning. Whether authentic or spuriously applied by German smiths,these are remarkably similar to some Milanese makers marks as well as some of the 'anchor' marks used by Toledo makers (i.e. Alonso Perez, late 16th, et al). The others resemble some occult/magic markings which were often used in inscriptions, names etc. on blades by Toledo smiths (Wagner, 1967). The Spanish method of swordplay was the mysterious system of 'destreza' or'the' Spanish Fight', (Aylward, 1945; Castle, 1885) which was based on geometric, mathematical, philosophical and occult principles. The weapon of choice was of course, the rapier, and while in the earlier years, very long blades were de riguer, however in time 'shorter' blades became favored (i.e. these 37" examples). I think it may be possible that a series of marks similar to established ones used in Milan and Toledo on blades, coupled with magic type sigils might allude to a swordsmans knowledge and skills in destreza, and may have been applied in these sequences suggesting such esoteric connection. Just thoughts.