First Post - Identification Assistance Much Appreciated

[oariff]

Hi,

Really happy to be part of this group. I haven't the slightest clue about krises and the family collection has been handed down to me.

Appreciate all the wisdom, knowledge, comments etc.

Thanks.
Omar

[Sajen]

Welcome to the forum Omar,

Looks like a keris picit or pejetan to my eyes. Scabbard is a recent replacement like the handle also. Blade seems to be old but pictures can deceive.

Regards,
Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

It might be a Sombro.

try removing the hilt, it is likely to be only a pressure fit, the tang wound with thread or cloth, if it is tight & difficult to remove, leave it . But if you can remove the hilt, & the end of the tang has an eye-hole in it, either broken or unbroken, then we can call it a Sombro.

[JustYS]

Hi Alan,

Beside the eye hole in the end of the tang what are the other characteristics for Sombro style Keris? Ganja iras or not?

Thank you

[Sajen]

All Sombro I've seen had a ganja iras.

Here my example.

[oariff]

Thank you very much. I hv had to look up for most of the terms used in the replies to even understand things.

I hv attached a few more pics of the blade.

As for removing the hilt, am worried that I can't put it together again.:

Cheers.

[JustYS]

Thank you Sajen

[David]

Originally Posted by oariff

Thank you very much. I hv had to look up for most of the terms used in the replies to even understand things.

I hv attached a few more pics of the blade.

As for removing the hilt, am worried that I can't put it together again.:

Cheers.

Welcome to the forum Omar.
It does indeed look to be a Keris Sombro, but a hole in the end of the pesi (tang) would be a defining trademark. These are so called after a legendary female Empu (keris smith) who used to thread these blades to carry them around and if you wanted one in the middle of the bunch the eye in the pesi was usually broken as she pulled it off the string.
As Alan explained, a keris hilt is usually pressure fit into the hilt, This is done by wrapping fabric or thread around the pesi (tang) any sort of screwing the pesi up into the hole in the hilt. I can understand if you choose not to mess with it, but reattaching a hilt in this manner is not very difficult. It is pretty much a "skill" that all keris collectors learn pretty early on. If you are really worried about this then leave it as is, but then you really can't be sure if it is indeed a Sombro keris. If the hilt hasn't been fixed with an adhesive you should be able to turn the hilt back and forth. Wiggling it gently while pulling the back on the hilt should allow it to come off. Once the hilt is off it will be pretty obvious what needs to be done to put it back in place.

[oariff]

Thank you very much Sajen and Alan for your guidance to remove the hilt. It was a pressure fit feeling. I have enclosed 2 more images for you to see.

Were these types of keris more weapons or amulets? For the average common guy?

How would I best summarise this weapon in point form: Origin, blade, dapor etc

Cheers.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, this is a Sombro.

We do not apply tangguh indicators to this form of keris, Keris Sombro is sufficient.

Within Javanese culture & society these keris are considered to be amulets, people seem to have varying ideas about what their talismanic qualities are except that these are invariably positive, however, it does seem to be universally recognised that they will assist in childbirth.

[Sajen]

Yes, clearly a keris Sombro.

The handle looks in your new pictures much better. The mendak (the ring) is a little bit damaged but I would still use it until you find a better one.

Regards,
Detlef

[David]

I agree with all here. Hilt may not be "new", but contemporary. As for origin, Jawa, hilt might be East Jawa.

[oariff]

Thanks for the info Alan, David and Sajen.

If one were to be conservative, how old would a blade like this be?

Cheers.

[David]

Originally Posted by oariff

Thanks for the info Alan, David and Sajen.

If one were to be conservative, how old would a blade like this be?

Cheers.

That's always a very difficult question, especially with this type of keris because it has very very stylistic indicators. Your keris does seem to present itself as being very old just from the nature of the erosion on the edges and tip. If it were to be a keris that was actually made by the legendary Empu Nyai Mbok Sombro it would date back to the 13th century Pajajaran kingdom of West Jawa. But the name Keris Sombro has become a style rather than an attribution and there is no real way to determine if this keris was an origin Sombro keris. I would say that it is certainly very old and if you want to be conservative you might say 15th century? Of course the dress in much, much newer.

[oariff]

Originally Posted by David

That's always a very difficult question, especially with this type of keris because it has very very stylistic indicators. Your keris does seem to present itself as being very old just from the nature of the erosion on the edges and tip. If it were to be a keris that was actually made by the legendary Empu Nyai Mbok Sombro it would date back to the 13th century Pajajaran kingdom of West Jawa. But the name Keris Sombro has become a style rather than an attribution and there is no real way to determine if this keris was an origin Sombro keris. I would say that it is certainly very old and if you want to be conservative you might say 15th century? Of course the dress in much, much newer.

Thanks David. Just wondering - Lets say it was Mbok's keris. Taking into consideration her life span, tools, materials etc, how many of these sombro"s would she have produced in her Empu journey.

Would it perhaps be better for me to display this sombro without the hilt and sheath? or will that be considered to be against keris protocol?

[David]

Originally Posted by oariff

Thanks David. Just wondering - Lets say it was Mbok's keris. Taking into consideration her life span, tools, materials etc, how many of these sombro"s would she have produced in her Empu journey.

Would it perhaps be better for me to display this sombro without the hilt and sheath? or will that be considered to be against keris protocol?

Nyai Mbok would be an honorific meaning a senior/elder woman/mother, not her actual name. The question of how many of these keris could have been made in Empu Sombro's lifetime is one i am afraid i could not answer. The stories about her say that she carried these keris threaded on a string to market or around the area to sell them, so that would imply that she had many to sell at a time, and these are rather simply constructed keris that probably did not take a great deal of time to forge. So i suppose she could have sold hundreds of these keris in her lifetime. But who knows. These many stories and legends about her, the most fantastic being that she quenched her blades with her labia. Image doing that hundreds of times! When we deal with stories this old it is impossible to verify much. This is why we say that keris of this form are called Keris Sombro, though that doesn't necessarily mean they were all (if any) actually created by the legendary female Empu.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by oariff

Would it perhaps be better for me to display this sombro without the hilt and sheath? or will that be considered to be against keris protocol?

The one I've shown I display without scabbard and handle, I have another one which has scabbard and handle. I think it's your choice!

Regards,
Detlef

[David]

Originally Posted by Sajen

The one I've shown I display without scabbard and handle, I have another one which has scabbard and handle. I think it's your choice!

Regards,
Detlef

My personal feeling about keris is that they should always be kept in their sheath when not being viewed. Many collectors wrap their keris in plastic so as not to have the metal in constant contact with the wood, but my understanding is that the sheath is the home for the wilah and that there is also a spiritual masculine/feminine, lingam/yoni kind of relationship here an that the sheath protects the spirit of the keris. But for a collector outside of the culture these aspects may be less important. So yes, as Detlef says, it is the choice of the collector.

[oariff]

Originally Posted by David

My personal feeling about keris is that they should always be kept in their sheath when not being viewed. Many collectors wrap their keris in plastic so as not to have the metal in constant contact with the wood, but my understanding is that the sheath is the home for the wilah and that there is also a spiritual masculine/feminine, lingam/yoni kind of relationship here an that the sheath protects the spirit of the keris. But for a collector outside of the culture these aspects may be less important. So yes, as Detlef says, it is the choice of the collector.

Thanks David and Sajen.

What do you think of this Keris Sajen / Majapahit. Old?

Another question - in terms of timeline, would it be sombro first or Sajen first?

Cheers.

[David]

Originally Posted by oariff

Thanks David and Sajen.

What do you think of this Keris Sajen / Majapahit. Old?

Another question - in terms of timeline, would it be sombro first or Sajen first?

Cheers.

Yes, this does appear to be a legitimately old keris sajen, but i don't really find it possible to get too exacting with ages on these since the form does not change much over the centuries. When more modern features are added to a sajen keris it becomes easier to classify it as a later variety, but the basic forms were also still be made later on.
I believe Empu Sombro was supposed to have lived during the middle Pajajaran in the 13th century. The date generally given for the beginning of the Mojopahit period is 1293, the very end of the 13th century. Keris Sajen are often called Keris Majapahit due to the belief that they came about during the Mojopahit era, but some seem to believe the form may have developed earlier. So that would make them somewhat contemporary to each other. That said, i have also see accounts that place Empu Sombro in the 10th century. So i'm not sure how much accuracy in these datings there actually is. Let's just say that both these forms seem to have come about in the early years of keris development.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, a sajen, no trace of Sombro in it.

Yes, old, but after the common use & understanding of the waved keris as a societal icon, so after the spread into general society of the waved keris, & that means after Islam as societal influence, possibly after Islamic dominance of Javanese society.

Ball park guess, after 1600.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes, a sajen, no trace of Sombro in it.

Yes, old, but after the common use & understanding of the waved keris as a societal icon, so after the spread into general society of the waved keris, & that means after Islam as societal influence, possibly after Islamic dominance of Javanese society.

Ball park guess, after 1600.

Good point about the luk variety of this particular sajen. I was attempting to answer Omar's question more generally. Which came first, sajen or Sombro. Certainly the very early keris sajen are all lurus keris. That said i would love if you could expand on the concept that a sajen with luk would not have come into general society until Islamic times. Certainly there were keris with luk if the Mojopahit Hindu era.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, there were keris with luk in the late pre-Islamic period, but at that time the bladed weapon that we now know as "keris/kris" was something that would have been restricted to the elites.

The "Elites" were the ranking members of kraton society, & the traders who occupied enclaves along the North Coast.

The traders were mostly from India, China & the Middle East, they inter-married with the daughters of the Mojo nobility, and it was higher ranked members of this nobility who controlled Mojo trade, using the foreign traders as their operatives. These traders copied the dress, manners & practices of the Mojo nobles.

These foreigners were for the most part Muslim, & there had been a Muslim presence in the Mojo court for a long time before Brawijaya V was converted at the prompting of his son, Raden Patah, to become Muslim. Raden Patah was the son of a Chinese concubine, and by all accounts a bit of a problem , he seemed to have the idea that he was the rightful heir to the throne, even though his mother was a concubine, not the first wife, or indeed, any wife.

So, palace pressures encouraged Raden Patah to separate from the court & to establish the court of Demak, with himself as Sultan.

Mojo was already coming apart at the seams, too many people wanted to be the Boss of the Bosses, the kraton moved to a few different places, and finally Raden Patah formed a force made up of nobles, traders & warriors from the Muslim enclaves along the North Coast & attacked Mojo.

Once Raden Patah had gained control of Mojo lands, the overall conversion of Jawa to Islam began.

It was mostly a pretty gentle conversion, there was a lot about Islam that was appealing to the common man, and local Muslim leaders gained new members of their settlements by granting land to converts. During this period one of the imperatives was to wash away the memory & practices that had been a part of Mojo.

In this period, when all men were equal before God, the keris became a weapon of anybody who could afford one, & at the same time, there was a consistent pressure to change the nature of the keris.

The keris morphed into an icon of society & gained much of its present character, a character which is quite a bit different to what it was in the Mojo era.

With these changes the luk of the keris no longer were associated with societal position, but gained a talismanic function, as did the keris itself.

It would have been after the adoption of the keris by society in general that the smaller, more easily carried form of keris came into being as a personal talisman.

It is widely believed that the keris sajen is a part of the Bersih Desa ceremony. I have seen this ceremony in a number of places in Central Jawa & I have never seen, nor been aware of, the use of a keris sajen in the ceremony. Similarly, I have spoken with Javanese people who were knowledgeable in the practice of various ceremonies, and none of these people have definitely committed to knowledge of the keris sajen being used in Bersih Desa.

However, I have known a number of people, both men & women who have had keris sajen, keris sombro & other small keris as their personal talismans.

[oariff]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes, there were keris with luk in the late pre-Islamic period, but at that time the bladed weapon that we now know as "keris/kris" was something that would have been restricted to the elites.

The "Elites" were the ranking members of kraton society, & the traders who occupied enclaves along the North Coast.

The traders were mostly from India, China & the Middle East, they inter-married with the daughters of the Mojo nobility, and it was higher ranked members of this nobility who controlled Mojo trade, using the foreign traders as their operatives. These traders copied the dress, manners & practices of the Mojo nobles.

These foreigners were for the most part Muslim, & there had been a Muslim presence in the Mojo court for a long time before Brawijaya V was converted at the prompting of his son, Raden Patah, to become Muslim. Raden Patah was the son of a Chinese concubine, and by all accounts a bit of a problem , he seemed to have the idea that he was the rightful heir to the throne, even though his mother was a concubine, not the first wife, or indeed, any wife.

So, palace pressures encouraged Raden Patah to separate from the court & to establish the court of Demak, with himself as Sultan.

Mojo was already coming apart at the seams, too many people wanted to be the Boss of the Bosses, the kraton moved to a few different places, and finally Raden Patah formed a force made up of nobles, traders & warriors from the Muslim enclaves along the North Coast & attacked Mojo.

Once Raden Patah had gained control of Mojo lands, the overall conversion of Jawa to Islam began.

It was mostly a pretty gentle conversion, there was a lot about Islam that was appealing to the common man, and local Muslim leaders gained new members of their settlements by granting land to converts. During this period one of the imperatives was to wash away the memory & practices that had been a part of Mojo.

In this period, when all men were equal before God, the keris became a weapon of anybody who could afford one, & at the same time, there was a consistent pressure to change the nature of the keris.

The keris morphed into an icon of society & gained much of its present character, a character which is quite a bit different to what it was in the Mojo era.

With these changes the luk of the keris no longer were associated with societal position, but gained a talismanic function, as did the keris itself.

It would have been after the adoption of the keris by society in general that the smaller, more easily carried form of keris came into being as a personal talisman.

It is widely believed that the keris sajen is a part of the Bersih Desa ceremony. I have seen this ceremony in a number of places in Central Jawa & I have never seen, nor been aware of, the use of a keris sajen in the ceremony. Similarly, I have spoken with Javanese people who were knowledgeable in the practice of various ceremonies, and none of these people have definitely committed to knowledge of the keris sajen being used in Bersih Desa.

However, I have known a number of people, both men & women who have had keris sajen, keris sombro & other small keris as their personal talismans.

For me to even figure out anything about this ancient weapon, I have to go back to it's beginning. And for that, thank you very much Alan, David and Sajen. What an insightful story. I have also read your comments on similar topics elsewhere on this great forum.

Just one last question - If I were later to donate these 2 keris's - will they be a worthy display in a small museum?

Cheers.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes, there were keris with luk in the late pre-Islamic period, but at that time the bladed weapon that we now know as "keris/kris" was something that would have been restricted to the elites.

The "Elites" were the ranking members of kraton society, & the traders who occupied enclaves along the North Coast.

The traders were mostly from India, China & the Middle East, they inter-married with the daughters of the Mojo nobility, and it was higher ranked members of this nobility who controlled Mojo trade, using the foreign traders as their operatives. These traders copied the dress, manners & practices of the Mojo nobles.

These foreigners were for the most part Muslim, & there had been a Muslim presence in the Mojo court for a long time before Brawijaya V was converted at the prompting of his son, Raden Patah, to become Muslim. Raden Patah was the son of a Chinese concubine, and by all accounts a bit of a problem , he seemed to have the idea that he was the rightful heir to the throne, even though his mother was a concubine, not the first wife, or indeed, any wife.

So, palace pressures encouraged Raden Patah to separate from the court & to establish the court of Demak, with himself as Sultan.

Mojo was already coming apart at the seams, too many people wanted to be the Boss of the Bosses, the kraton moved to a few different places, and finally Raden Patah formed a force made up of nobles, traders & warriors from the Muslim enclaves along the North Coast & attacked Mojo.

Once Raden Patah had gained control of Mojo lands, the overall conversion of Jawa to Islam began.

It was mostly a pretty gentle conversion, there was a lot about Islam that was appealing to the common man, and local Muslim leaders gained new members of their settlements by granting land to converts. During this period one of the imperatives was to wash away the memory & practices that had been a part of Mojo.

In this period, when all men were equal before God, the keris became a weapon of anybody who could afford one, & at the same time, there was a consistent pressure to change the nature of the keris.

The keris morphed into an icon of society & gained much of its present character, a character which is quite a bit different to what it was in the Mojo era.

With these changes the luk of the keris no longer were associated with societal position, but gained a talismanic function, as did the keris itself.

It would have been after the adoption of the keris by society in general that the smaller, more easily carried form of keris came into being as a personal talisman.

It is widely believed that the keris sajen is a part of the Bersih Desa ceremony. I have seen this ceremony in a number of places in Central Jawa & I have never seen, nor been aware of, the use of a keris sajen in the ceremony. Similarly, I have spoken with Javanese people who were knowledgeable in the practice of various ceremonies, and none of these people have definitely committed to knowledge of the keris sajen being used in Bersih Desa.

However, I have known a number of people, both men & women who have had keris sajen, keris sombro & other small keris as their personal talismans.

Hi Alan. All good information that i was already aware of, but in the context of this particular converstaion, are you saying that you don't believe that the keris sajen developed until AFTER the Mojopahit, despite the common use of the the term Keris Majapahit to identify it?

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes David, I'm sure that you would have already been aware of much of the info in this post, but a lot of the people who may read this post might not have been.

I am of the opinion that the keris sajen came into being at a time when esoteric attributes were already well established as a characteristic of the keris.

If we go to the old literature it seems clear that initially the keris was purely a weapon, this weapon has altered in both form & function over the last 1000 years or so, & these alterations reflect societal needs & beliefs.

The esoterica that surrounds the keris seems to come into being after the keris as we know it now became iconic of Javanese society, & this did not happen until after the rise of Islam.

The name "Keris Majapahit" for this form of keris seems to have come from outside Jawa, I think it was originally coined by one of the early European researchers or Javanologists.

The name "Keris Majapahit" for these little sajens is one I never heard in Solo in the 1970's. When a Javanese person talks about a "Keris Mojopahit" he is talking about a keris of tangguh Mojopahit, not a Keris Sajen.

I have never done much research on the keris sajen, the hilt figures seem to vary in accordance with the type of people who were regarded as figures of power when the sajen was made, so you get Turkish style hats, Euro style hats & so on that serve to identify the figure.

I built a good representative collection of sajens, and had them in my site photo gallery, but I passed that collection to a new owner, probably ten or fifteen years ago.

I think that we are all aware of the distinction between keris knowledge & keris belief, but very often the keris belief does become keris knowledge, at which time it becomes knowledge of a belief system. Somewhat the same as the knowledge of any other belief system.

[A. G. Maisey]

As an example:-

"--- hilt figures seem to vary in accordance with the type of people who were regarded as figures of power when the sajen was made ---"

[Pendita65]

Mr. Maisey,

thank you for this broad explanation of the Keris Sajen and it's origin. Each time here on the forum i learn something new to me.


Best wishes, Martin