Anglo Indian sword - ID needed!

Jim McDougall · 17th April 2024, 05:45 PM

Well reasoned and a most salient perspective. As noted, this hilt is very crudely produced and clearly in imitation of the British M1822 infantry officers brass 'Gothic' style hilt, as I previously mentioned.

Obviously this is not an 'army' weapon, so what I should have specified is what possible 'quasi' military units or perhaps security forces might have adopted such a 'thunderbolt' symbol. The suggestion that this symbol was common as a radio operators insignia in many armies worldwide, along with the illustrations is compelling. Also quite apparent is that the thunderbolt (lightning) used in this parlance aligned with radio communications would be unlikely before the use of the radio began.

The symbol was first suggested as a 'crest', then further noted in subsequent post as not being a crest (I agree), and with the suggestion this may have inspired its use in cartouche in imitation of same in the British style hilt. While it has been noted that the thunderbolt symbol was used by MANY armies, and that its resemblance is closest to the German version......and Germany had numerous colonial theaters....why would the BRITISH sword form be the prototype for the hilt if in a German colony?

German swords of the latter 19th century used the oval cartouche in various hilt styles (M1889) which typically placed devices and cyphers of the states etc. However the hilt form on this example is entirely British.

In North Africa, European blades were heavily imported for centuries and used in the broadswords of the Sahara and Sudan. Often these blades had of course various symbols and markings such as the familiar cross and orb, the twig and others. These markings were often seen in entirely different perspective by the native population, for example...the cross and orb was seen as the drum and sticks, symbolically important in tribal parlance signifying a chief or other highly important figure. Other markings of western' origin were also translated into the tribal representation.

In India, while the British occupied and administrated the subcontinent and its princely states as well as other associated regions included in the colonial empire, most of the forces were native units and para military levees. In the private sector, large companies, infrastructure with transportation functions as well as factories etc. maintained private security forces. There are numbers of weapons of this nature used in this capacity, either obsolete military arms, or in many cases privately produced imitations typically cruder and less robust than the old military weapons.

I wanted to better explain my previous suggestion noting accord with the notion of 'western' symbolism inspiring elements of a hilt form copied as an ersatz sword for a quasi military unit, but seen in of course quite different parlance (as pertaining to the Vajra). With the primary basis of the hilt being British, and India part of the British Commonwealth, and the fact that such weapons produced in India during the Raj, this seems not only possible, but likely.

Finally, with the German insignia reference: It does seem that while I cannot speak to the use of the thunderbolt with reference to radio operators etc. worldwide, I do know that Germany in the 1930s (pre WWII) and the unfortunate regime evolving used early historic, religious and cultural symbols in much of its regalia.
The SS and related elements used symbols from runes (collectively used term)and the swastika of course from Buddhist symbolism. The Vajra of course derives from Tantric Buddhism.

Is it possible that the thunderbolt, used as symbol for the electricity based communications insignia in modern armies was in fact adopted from such earlier symbolism in the same manner? thus the application I originally suggested might have had the same root?

17th April 2024, 05:45 PM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Well reasoned and a most salient perspective. As noted, this hilt is very crudely produced and clearly in imitation of the British M1822 infantry officers brass 'Gothic' style hilt, as I previously mentioned. Obviously this is not an 'army' weapon, so what I should have specified is what possible 'quasi' military units or perhaps security forces might have adopted such a 'thunderbolt' symbol. The suggestion that this symbol was common as a radio operators insignia in many armies worldwide, along with the illustrations is compelling. Also quite apparent is that the thunderbolt (lightning) used in this parlance aligned with radio communications would be unlikely before the use of the radio began. The symbol was first suggested as a 'crest', then further noted in subsequent post as not being a crest (I agree), and with the suggestion this may have inspired its use in cartouche in imitation of same in the British style hilt. While it has been noted that the thunderbolt symbol was used by MANY armies, and that its resemblance is closest to the German version......and Germany had numerous colonial theaters....why would the BRITISH sword form be the prototype for the hilt if in a German colony? German swords of the latter 19th century used the oval cartouche in various hilt styles (M1889) which typically placed devices and cyphers of the states etc. However the hilt form on this example is entirely British. In North Africa, European blades were heavily imported for centuries and used in the broadswords of the Sahara and Sudan. Often these blades had of course various symbols and markings such as the familiar cross and orb, the twig and others. These markings were often seen in entirely different perspective by the native population, for example...the cross and orb was seen as the drum and sticks, symbolically important in tribal parlance signifying a chief or other highly important figure. Other markings of western' origin were also translated into the tribal representation. In India, while the British occupied and administrated the subcontinent and its princely states as well as other associated regions included in the colonial empire, most of the forces were native units and para military levees. In the private sector, large companies, infrastructure with transportation functions as well as factories etc. maintained private security forces. There are numbers of weapons of this nature used in this capacity, either obsolete military arms, or in many cases privately produced imitations typically cruder and less robust than the old military weapons. I wanted to better explain my previous suggestion noting accord with the notion of 'western' symbolism inspiring elements of a hilt form copied as an ersatz sword for a quasi military unit, but seen in of course quite different parlance (as pertaining to the Vajra). With the primary basis of the hilt being British, and India part of the British Commonwealth, and the fact that such weapons produced in India during the Raj, this seems not only possible, but likely. Finally, with the German insignia reference: It does seem that while I cannot speak to the use of the thunderbolt with reference to radio operators etc. worldwide, I do know that Germany in the 1930s (pre WWII) and the unfortunate regime evolving used early historic, religious and cultural symbols in much of its regalia. The SS and related elements used symbols from runes (collectively used term)and the swastika of course from Buddhist symbolism. The Vajra of course derives from Tantric Buddhism. Is it possible that the thunderbolt, used as symbol for the electricity based communications insignia in modern armies was in fact adopted from such earlier symbolism in the same manner? thus the application I originally suggested might have had the same root?