A very, very old Moro kris

[Ian]

Originally Posted by David

... i wonder if this kris is not just very old instead of "very, very old". I mean, yes, it is obviously an old kris in what we know as the "archaic" form, but when i look at the gangya i see this series of holes where on a kris from the 17th centry or older i would expect to see actual greneng. Of course, i have seen this before, but on later kris. Also extent of the 45 degree angle rise at the end of the gangya seems to me to be a later development. My thought would therefore be 18th century. Dress could be 19th or even early 20th C. Nice find Ian.

David, the issue of greneng, or the absence of such, is an interesting one. The example shown here by Lief has some greneng, still visible but seriously worn down. Detlef's example similarly shows almost no definable greneng. So perhaps these ancient kris had greneng to some extent that simply got worn down with time. And the Java keris in Moro dress referenced by Detlef appears never to have had greneng.

The point you raise about the drilled holes is a good one. The holes look fairly well defined, and show little effects of corrosion. In fact, when I X-rayed the area those holes looked very clean and circular--"punched out." For this reason, I think they are probably a much later addition.

Lastly, the uptilted end of the gangya is seen on the very old Bugis keris example that I have referenced, suggesting that this style of gangya could have been copied from the Bugis at an early time in the development of the Moro kris.

[David]

Originally Posted by Ian

David, the issue of greneng, or the absence of such, is an interesting one. The example shown here by Lief has some greneng, still visible but seriously worn down. Detlef's example similarly shows almost no definable greneng. So perhaps these ancient kris had greneng to some extent that simply got worn down with time. And the Java keris in Moro dress referenced by Detlef appears never to have had greneng.


The point you raise about the drilled holes is a good one. The holes look fairly well defined, and show little effects of corrosion. In fact, when I X-rayed the area those holes looked very clean and circular--"punched out." For this reason, I think they are probably a much later addition.


Lastly, the uptilted end of the gangya is seen on the very old Bugis keris example that I have referenced, suggesting that this style of gangya could have been copied from the Bugis at an early time in the development of the Moro kris.

We will have to agree to disagree here Ian. I believe the oldest Moro blades would display "greneng" as all these other examples presented here do show. Detlef's is the exception, but it is not a Moro blade. I can see nothing that leads me to belief the holes in your kris were added at a later date. The holes and the contoured bumps along the edge around them look original to the blade to my eyes. Again, i have seen these on later Moro kris, though i don't know exactly where along the timeline this style began. To me it seems like something that was added to simulate greneng a bit further down the timeline when the concept of greneng was further from its source in Java and less understood by Moro kris smiths. It seems to me that on the earliest of archaic Moro keris we still see greneng as it was originally intended in Java that still maintains the form of ron dha if not the full symbolic intent. That symbolic intent even changed in Java as the keris became a Islamic blade rather than a Hindu one. Over time the style of "greneng" on Moro kris became more varied and divorced from the original symbolic intent of the form. I still think that while indeed an old kris, yours is not part of the oldest group of archaic kris that would have maintained more of the original Indonesian form that it was developed from.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by David

We will have to agree to disagree here Ian. I believe the oldest Moro blades would display "greneng" as all these other examples presented here do show. Detlef's is the exception, but it is not a Moro blade.

I also think/believe that early Moro blades show greneng.
I think you mean the kris/keris with the broken scabbard, it's not mine, it's in the possession from Michael Marlow. But I believe that this blade had once greneng, it's simply very worn, see the pic.

Regards,
Detlef

[Rafngard]

Originally Posted by Sajen

I think you mean the kris/keris with the broken scabbard, it's not mine, it's in the possession from Michael Marlow. But I believe that this blade had once greneng, it's simply very worn, see the pic.

I'm fairly certain I handled that blade the last time I went to Sweden, in May of 2022. It's an odd one so it sticks in my head.

In my uneducated hands the blade definitely felt very Javanese and also very old and warn. I think Detlef is probably right that it probably once had a greneng.

Have fun,
Leif

[Ian]

David and Detlef,

You are both much more knowledgeable about keris than I am. Thank you for your thoughts. However, neither of you commented on the presence of a round tang versus a flat or squared tang. In other discussions here, the presence of a round tang was thought to indicate an early form of kris. It has been suggested that the move to a flat tang was to avoid the twisting of the hilt in the hand during use, and that the asang asang were applied for the same reason.

Detlef, do you know if your old kris has a round tang or how long the tang is? IIRC, the tang has become shorter over time, and early tangs were often quite long in the hilt.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Ian

David and Detlef,

You are both much more knowledgeable about keris than I am. Thank you for your thoughts. However, neither of you commented on the presence of a round tang versus a flat or squared tang. In other discussions here, the presence of a round tang was thought to indicate an early form of kris. It has been suggested that the move to a flat tang was to avoid the twisting of the hilt in the hand during use, and that the asang asang were applied for the same reason.

Detlef, do you know if your old kris has a round tang or how long the tang is? IIRC, the tang has become shorter over time, and early tangs were often quite long in the hilt.

Hi Ian,
Yes, I know that it's said that early blades have a round tang. But frankly I haven't seen enough early blades without handles to verify this, but it seems reasonable. But there is still the question from which time frame there was the change from round to square tangs.

And no, I don't know the tang construction by this one nor by the other old kris blade in my possession, I've never dismantled the handles. Sadly I don't have a veterinarian as friend! For sure it would be helpful to know it by many more examples, we would know much more.

Regards,
Detlef

[Rafngard]

Originally Posted by Ian

Detlef, do you know if your old kris has a round tang or how long the tang is? IIRC, the tang has become shorter over time, and early tangs were often quite long in the hilt.

Depending on the construction of the hilt, the length of the tang might be a lot easier to test than the roundness of the tang. On my example above, a refrigerator magnet will stick to the hilt (thus indicating ferrous material) at any point between the ganja and the ivory pommel.

Also, I'll be seeing local former forum member this weekend, who happens to have an archaic Kris with a round tang. I'll check to see if his Kris has the gap.

Have fun,
Leif

[Ian]

As promised, here are the X-rays of the hilt. The various features visible on the X-ray are shown in the picture below, which was taken mainly to visualize the tang. The tang seems quite long compared with 19th C and more modern kris, tapers slightly from the blade to the end of the tang, and has a slight bend. Also apparent are the thick silver bands spaced along the handle. Looking at the pommel, it is interesting to note a drilled void within it that has been hollowed out to accommodate a peg from the handle which has been fixed to the pommel with a small nail or pin. The pin is visible on the exterior of the hilt and there is a small crack in the wood caused by its presence. The degree of detail in this picture is more than I had expected, although we experimented somewhat to get the desired contrast in the image.
The following table shows how the actual length and width of the tang can be calculated from a print out of the attached picture. Using a vernier micrometer, I measured the actual length of the the silver grip on the sword; this was 8.85 cm. I then measured the length of the same structure on the image; that was 7.85 cm. This meant that all linear dimensions on that X-ray image needed to be corrected by a factor of 8.85/7.85 in order to arrive at the correct linear measurement.

[Ian]

Here are the views obtained with rotation of the long axis of the sword. They show that tang width at various points along the hilt shows slight narrowing with progressive rotation from horizontal (0º) to vertical (90º), but not enough to suggest that this is a flat tang. The flattening is somewhat accentuated by the sword coming off the table as it was rotated, because of the effect of the gangya. Allowing for some parallax by referencing the width of the tang to the width of the cylindrical hilt at the same point, indicated little difference in width of the tang in each projection. This suggests a round tang IMHO.

Images have been rotated for ease of viewing the changes associated with rotation of the sword.

0º rotation (horizontal)



30º rotation



60º rotation



90º rotation (vertical)

[Rafngard]

Originally Posted by Rafngard

Depending on the construction of the hilt, the length of the tang might be a lot easier to test than the roundness of the tang. On my example above, a refrigerator magnet will stick to the hilt (thus indicating ferrous material) at any point between the ganja and the ivory pommel.

Also, I'll be seeing local former forum member this weekend, who happens to have an archaic Kris with a round tang. I'll check to see if his Kris has the gap.

Have fun,
Leif

Took me longer than expected to get them, but here's pics of Federico's round-tanged kris.
It does in fact have the gap.

[Ian]

Leif, thank you so much for those pictures. There is a lot of similarity with the example I posted at the top of this thread. Again, there seems to be a strong Bugis influence, and the "bulge" below the mouth is present as well as the gap between the blade and gangya in that area. Obviously another very old example. Am I seeing some flattening of the left side of the tang in the third picture? Do you a measurement for the length of the tang?


Thanks to Federico for allowing his sword to be presented here.