Swedish m/1791 hussar sabre

Victrix · 10th February 2024, 05:07 PM

This Christmas I was blessed with a Swedish m/1791 hussar sabre. It’s light, elegant, and handles swiftly. The grip is very much in Prussian style with an angular iron knuckle bow although it retains the Hungarian style langets and almond shaped flat pommel. It also has the back strap and leather covered cord grip.

The blade is curved and single edged with a false edge near the tip. There’s a deep fuller running along the back of the blade, with a shallow fuller along the centre. A curious detail is that the tip has been filed into a spear shape (for stabbing purposes?) with a prominent barb behind a hint of a smaller barb. The front barb looks like it’s just a decoration.

There’s a very similar Swedish m/1759 husar sabre which is virtually identical with the only differences that it’s langets end squarely, and the back strap is fastened with a screw instead of a bolt.

Swedish hussar regiments were formed in the Swedish colony in Pomerania (Prussia) during the Pomeranian war 1757-1762. They were initially formed with Prussian locals using Prussian hussar style equipment. The famous Prussian General von Blücher originally served with the Swedish hussars. The blade doesn’t carry the Swedish P inspection stamp so I believe the sword was made in Prussia/Germany. The barb feature seems primarily Germanic and I never saw it in Sweden before.

Victrix · 10th February 2024, 06:04 PM

In “Cut and Thrust Weapons” (1969) by Eduard Wagner there are several Austro-Hungarian pallasches with what’s described as a “short jagged tooth” on the back edge of the blade near the point. The author claimed that the tooth helped the wielder aggravate the wound when thrusting. There was previously a discussion about these curious notches on the swords which can be read here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...austrian+sabre.

Hotspur · 11th February 2024, 01:08 AM

I had been told by someone in Sweden that there were no steel hilt hussar swords made and used as official types. Contrarily, the curator of Higgins Armoury listed my hussar as Swedish 1750s-760s and was drawing from the same Wagner texts. Different in that it is a counterguard vs langet.

There was a recent thread on point notches and generally regarded as for retreival.

Cheers
GC

Jim McDougall · 11th February 2024, 02:35 AM

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...austrian+notch

Perfect!!! This is a conundrum I began researching back in the 90s, and it is one of the most obscure, untended topic imaginable. In years of research I never found a single tangible answer. All of the suggested purposes were patently infeasible, including the notion of retrieving objects from the ground by horsemen, as these are not of adequate opening to hold anything except perhaps an item of clothing snagged.

While Wagner (where I first saw them in the drawings back in the 70s) has them only on Austrian swords, I wanted to verify these were indeed actually there not just some license. I did get photos of the actual swords Wagner drew from by reaching the museums listed...the notches were indeed true.

Over the years, I did find that some French and German swords that had the notch, again, typically unnoticed so there were of course no theories as to the reason why they were there.

The suggestions of damage was of course ridiculous, these cut notches were deliberate and always strategically placed near the tip on blade back.

There was a suggestion of a notch which placed a barb near the tip, which might cause a distracting cut in sword combat, much like the 'stramazone' slashing cut in a duel. It is known of course that the hussars were known for dashing flamboyance, and in their reputation, there was a great deal of attention to affairs of honor....and duels were not uncommon despite the prohibition. This has been suggested by others, and in the movie "the Duelists", one of the combats was with military sabers.

I have often thought that these 'barbs' or notches were something akin to that described, perhaps to the purpose noted, or possibly added by some hussars or cavalrymen to allude to their potential reputation as a duelist.
Without any viable pragmatic solution, this is the one I most ascribe to at this point.

Pandour officers who were with these auxiliary units for Maria Theresa in the War of Austrian Succession were often Hungarian, thereby of course Austro-Hungarian, and clearly had occasion to follow this apparent custom.

Victrix thank you so much for sharing this amazing saber! and for the opportunity to add yet another page to this ever unsolved mystery. I hope others might add to this topic with any examples they have seen in addition to those seen in the 2009 thread attached.

Victrix · 11th February 2024, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotspur

I had been told by someone in Sweden that there were no steel hilt hussar swords made and used as official types. Contrarily, the curator of Higgins Armoury listed my hussar as Swedish 1750s-760s and was drawing from the same Wagner texts. Different in that it is a counterguard vs langet.

There was a recent thread on point notches and generally regarded as for retreival.

Cheers
GC

Well, it seems he was wrong. And they don’t look like yours. This is an on-line photo from the official Army Museum in Stockholm.

Victrix · 11th February 2024, 09:18 AM

That’s a very beautiful sword you have there, Jim. Yes it’s a conundrum about these notches. You are the person who first alerted my attention to them. When I saw this sword up for sale I could not resist obtaining an example with this curious notch. A noteworthy detail is that the point of the sabre has been filed downwards towards the sharp edge into a spear point before the notches were added. The first notch is just a hint which makes me wonder if as you say they have more symbolical than practical use. The filing down of the point to a spearpoint seems like an adaption to make the sword better suited for thrust. Spontaneously I thought it makes it good for catching fish but surely no soldier would use his sword for such mundane use.

-

Jim McDougall · 11th February 2024, 07:37 PM

Victrix, much in kind as to your note that I brought 'the mystery of the blade notch' your attention......here you have notably supported my theory, which I have been trying to prove since my research on this topic began three decades ago. It began in 1994, as I was browsing through Wagner (1967, Prague) and noted these curious notched blades faithfully depicted. These were all on Austrian examples (as often noted mostly cavalry pallasches) but on two sabers of the five examples (as I recall).

Wanting to confirm these were not 'artistic license'., I wrote to the museums holding the examples Wagner drew from to confirm physically that the notches indeed existed. By 1996 (no computer web/online in those days), I had photos of the noted swords, which indeed had the notches. The museum officials mostly subscribed to Wagners theory of 'worsening' the wound.

I know now that did not mean in thrusting, with the the possible/probable restriction of withdrawing the now embedded blade...but actually in the passage you brilliantly highlighted in Wagners text......to provide a barb in the back edge of the blade for a 'back cut' in close quarters melee, where there was no space to properly swing the sword with sufficient impetus, but a tight slash would impair and distract the opponent momentarily to allow for realignment.

By this same token, a most salient entry by RYSAYS (1/Jan/2024) in the 2017 thread (ongoing) has his take on the notch supporting the 'wound' theory, and in this case to the aspects of the duel with sabers.

In the 1836 "Essai sur de duel" by Louis Alfred le Blanc de Chatauvillad, it is noted in the regulations and protocols of dueling, it is forbidden to 'CHIP' the blade of an epee to cause illegitimate cuts in disputes settled by blood.
While the saber is not specifically noted, it may be well presumed that officers of hussars did engage in dueling with sabers ("The Duelists" , 1978, film from the actual accounts of such events in hussars of the French cavalry during Napoleonic period....from the story by Joseph Conrad).

Honor was typically indeed satisfied by the drawing of blood, and to notch a saber blade in this manner would profoundly intimate that the hussar who proudly bore this feature on his blade was indeed, the swaggering duelist known among the colorful reputation of hussars. It would seem that this notion was not something well known of course, and seems to have been around for many years as suggested by the early examples to the War of Spanish Succession (1701).

There are many nuances of unusual practices and superstitious protocols which exist throughout the history of European military spheres, and these understandably are not typically found by the casual student of such history.
There is a scholarly reticence to include such subjective matter in published material on military history. in fact specifics to swords themselves are typically restricted to whether they were curved, straight but little else if mentioned at all.

While this practice of 'notching' seems to have indeed diffused throughout Europe likely along with the 'hussar phenomenon' (as indicated by its incidental occurrence in these cavalry units of other countries) it seems to have phased out. I would guess that its inception was in the Austro-Hungarian sphere with the remarkable attention to swordsmanship which prevailed there.

Whether it was as initially as surmised a feature to incur distracting wounds in close quarters combat, or to ensure a non fatal blooded cut in a duel, the purpose of the 'notch' in my opinion is in this category.

WONDERFUL SABER VICTRIX! and my thanks for posting it to bring this decades old mystery to at least a reasonably plausible solution.

Victrix · 11th February 2024, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotspur

I had been told by someone in Sweden that there were no steel hilt hussar swords made and used as official types. Contrarily, the curator of Higgins Armoury listed my hussar as Swedish 1750s-760s and was drawing from the same Wagner texts. Different in that it is a counterguard vs langet.

There was a recent thread on point notches and generally regarded as for retreival.

Cheers
GC

Here are the main Swedish cavalry sabres of 18th-19thC. From “Blanka Vapen” (1975) by Josef Alm.

Victrix · 11th February 2024, 08:09 PM

Thank you, Jim. I’m pleased with the sabre and the notch adds an interesting collectable detail. You may well be right about the notch used mainly for duelling purposes. In Germanic lands especially there are well known customs at fraternities devoted to duelling and scars were proudly displayed. The notches could perhaps be used to draw blood without causing fatal injuries. Contemporary historic materials mention appalling wounds caused by sabres in times of war.

-

Jim McDougall · 11th February 2024, 10:13 PM

I think the reason these notches are relatively rare is that this was likely a limited affectation, which is again why it is never noted in accounts of hussar 'lore', It may be that the presumption of the 'gorier' purpose became broadly known, again in popular lore of the times. The Pandours had a notorious reputation for their depredations much in the same manner as dragoon regiments often had similar reputation. There was a colloquial expression of being 'dragooned' if memory serves.

Perhaps, much in the way of the maligned saw tooth Schmidt-Rubin bayonet of WWI, which was seen to be a horrendous weapon to cause heinous wounding, so that allied forces finding one with a German soldier led to his summary execution.....these notched points were ground away. In reality these toothed bayonets were designed for utility use in assembling emplacements etc.....but the German soldiers hastily ground off the teeth on the blades to avoid the wrath of the allies if captured.

As noted the 'symbolic' presence of these notched blades toward dueling, were likely applied in the manner described, to draw blood and satisfy resolution to a matter of infringed honor without fatality. As you mention, the German 'duels' using the lightweight schlager saber are fought with the sole purpose of acquiring a facial scar. This was seen as a mark of honor in accord with the flamboyant age of the hussar.

This was known as the 'mensur' and one fencing master, very well known, who I communicated with on occasion, had fought at least three of these, which are apparently not fought that much these days as this was featured in the book, "By the Sword" (Cohen).

Contrary to popular belief, duels were seldom fought to the death, and as these were pre arranged, the element of rage and adrenalin typically only became a factor if one combatant did something out of bounds etc.
Once blood was drawn,even a scratch, the match was typically ended.

Hotspur · 12th February 2024, 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

Here are the main Swedish cavalry sabres of 18th-19thC. From “Blanka Vapen” (1975) by Josef Alm.

Thanks for the information and pictures!

Victrix · 12th February 2024, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotspur

Thanks for the information and pictures!

My pleasure! I will keep an eye out in case I see a sabre similar to yours.

shayde78 · 12th March 2024, 02:49 AM

The discussion of the notches near the tip of these blades intrigues me. Might I offer an entirely mundane possible purpose.

If you were to drop your gloves or your hat while in the saddle, having a long pointed stick with a barb at the end would make retrieving said item much easier. Absent a pointed stick, a sword with a notch at the end of the blade would do the trick. No need to dismount - simply reach down with your blade, use the hook to snag the item, and be on your merry way.

Victrix · 12th March 2024, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shayde78

The discussion of the notches near the tip of these blades intrigues me. Might I offer an entirely mundane possible purpose.

If you were to drop your gloves or your hat while in the saddle, having a long pointed stick with a barb at the end would make retrieving said item much easier. Absent a pointed stick, a sword with a notch at the end of the blade would do the trick. No need to dismount - simply reach down with your blade, use the hook to snag the item, and be on your merry way.

Thank you, Shayde. That probably completes the circle on the subject once again.

shayde78 · 13th March 2024, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

Thank you, Shayde. That probably completes the circle on the subject once again.

Ah....my mistake. I had missed that this theory has already been mentioned. That's what I get for thinking I'm clever (lol)!

Jim McDougall · 13th March 2024, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shayde78

Ah....my mistake. I had missed that this theory has already been mentioned. That's what I get for thinking I'm clever (lol)!

Im glad you caught that Shayde! (posts #7,10). Trust me, this conundrum has plagued me since the mid 90s, and honestly as I pestered sources in museums, authors, fencing masters and everyplace I could think of to look. ...I could sense the 'what? who cares syndrome'.

Truthfully, other than Wagner, who made his clearly pragmatic suggestion, nobody else I ever spoke with ever gave it a thought, and seemed surprised that I was intrigued by such a insignificant feature....until e recent earlier discussion mentioned by Glen, and Victrix bringing this outstanding example in.

Your astute observation was well placed and made independently of other comments, so indeed, in a word, clever

Its exactly that which makes our forums great, guys who care to step in and say something!! Keep em comin' Shayde!

10th February 2024, 05:07 PM	#1
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 695	Swedish m/1791 hussar sabre This Christmas I was blessed with a Swedish m/1791 hussar sabre. It’s light, elegant, and handles swiftly. The grip is very much in Prussian style with an angular iron knuckle bow although it retains the Hungarian style langets and almond shaped flat pommel. It also has the back strap and leather covered cord grip. The blade is curved and single edged with a false edge near the tip. There’s a deep fuller running along the back of the blade, with a shallow fuller along the centre. A curious detail is that the tip has been filed into a spear shape (for stabbing purposes?) with a prominent barb behind a hint of a smaller barb. The front barb looks like it’s just a decoration. There’s a very similar Swedish m/1759 husar sabre which is virtually identical with the only differences that it’s langets end squarely, and the back strap is fastened with a screw instead of a bolt. Swedish hussar regiments were formed in the Swedish colony in Pomerania (Prussia) during the Pomeranian war 1757-1762. They were initially formed with Prussian locals using Prussian hussar style equipment. The famous Prussian General von Blücher originally served with the Swedish hussars. The blade doesn’t carry the Swedish P inspection stamp so I believe the sword was made in Prussia/Germany. The barb feature seems primarily Germanic and I never saw it in Sweden before. Attached Images Last edited by Victrix; 10th February 2024 at 06:10 PM.

10th February 2024, 06:04 PM	#2
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 695	In “Cut and Thrust Weapons” (1969) by Eduard Wagner there are several Austro-Hungarian pallasches with what’s described as a “short jagged tooth” on the back edge of the blade near the point. The author claimed that the tooth helped the wielder aggravate the wound when thrusting. There was previously a discussion about these curious notches on the swords which can be read here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...austrian+sabre. Attached Images

11th February 2024, 01:08 AM	#3
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 498	I had been told by someone in Sweden that there were no steel hilt hussar swords made and used as official types. Contrarily, the curator of Higgins Armoury listed my hussar as Swedish 1750s-760s and was drawing from the same Wagner texts. Different in that it is a counterguard vs langet. There was a recent thread on point notches and generally regarded as for retreival. Cheers GC Attached Images

11th February 2024, 02:35 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...austrian+notch Perfect!!! This is a conundrum I began researching back in the 90s, and it is one of the most obscure, untended topic imaginable. In years of research I never found a single tangible answer. All of the suggested purposes were patently infeasible, including the notion of retrieving objects from the ground by horsemen, as these are not of adequate opening to hold anything except perhaps an item of clothing snagged. While Wagner (where I first saw them in the drawings back in the 70s) has them only on Austrian swords, I wanted to verify these were indeed actually there not just some license. I did get photos of the actual swords Wagner drew from by reaching the museums listed...the notches were indeed true. Over the years, I did find that some French and German swords that had the notch, again, typically unnoticed so there were of course no theories as to the reason why they were there. The suggestions of damage was of course ridiculous, these cut notches were deliberate and always strategically placed near the tip on blade back. There was a suggestion of a notch which placed a barb near the tip, which might cause a distracting cut in sword combat, much like the 'stramazone' slashing cut in a duel. It is known of course that the hussars were known for dashing flamboyance, and in their reputation, there was a great deal of attention to affairs of honor....and duels were not uncommon despite the prohibition. This has been suggested by others, and in the movie "the Duelists", one of the combats was with military sabers. I have often thought that these 'barbs' or notches were something akin to that described, perhaps to the purpose noted, or possibly added by some hussars or cavalrymen to allude to their potential reputation as a duelist. Without any viable pragmatic solution, this is the one I most ascribe to at this point. Pandour officers who were with these auxiliary units for Maria Theresa in the War of Austrian Succession were often Hungarian, thereby of course Austro-Hungarian, and clearly had occasion to follow this apparent custom. Victrix thank you so much for sharing this amazing saber! and for the opportunity to add yet another page to this ever unsolved mystery. I hope others might add to this topic with any examples they have seen in addition to those seen in the 2009 thread attached. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 11th February 2024 at 02:59 AM.

11th February 2024, 09:18 AM	#6
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 695	That’s a very beautiful sword you have there, Jim. Yes it’s a conundrum about these notches. You are the person who first alerted my attention to them. When I saw this sword up for sale I could not resist obtaining an example with this curious notch. A noteworthy detail is that the point of the sabre has been filed downwards towards the sharp edge into a spear point before the notches were added. The first notch is just a hint which makes me wonder if as you say they have more symbolical than practical use. The filing down of the point to a spearpoint seems like an adaption to make the sword better suited for thrust. Spontaneously I thought it makes it good for catching fish but surely no soldier would use his sword for such mundane use. - Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 11th February 2024 at 04:44 PM. Reason: Members are recommended to reduce the size of each quotation to the part of the texts they wish to emphasize !

11th February 2024, 07:37 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	Victrix, much in kind as to your note that I brought 'the mystery of the blade notch' your attention......here you have notably supported my theory, which I have been trying to prove since my research on this topic began three decades ago. It began in 1994, as I was browsing through Wagner (1967, Prague) and noted these curious notched blades faithfully depicted. These were all on Austrian examples (as often noted mostly cavalry pallasches) but on two sabers of the five examples (as I recall). Wanting to confirm these were not 'artistic license'., I wrote to the museums holding the examples Wagner drew from to confirm physically that the notches indeed existed. By 1996 (no computer web/online in those days), I had photos of the noted swords, which indeed had the notches. The museum officials mostly subscribed to Wagners theory of 'worsening' the wound. I know now that did not mean in thrusting, with the the possible/probable restriction of withdrawing the now embedded blade...but actually in the passage you brilliantly highlighted in Wagners text......to provide a barb in the back edge of the blade for a 'back cut' in close quarters melee, where there was no space to properly swing the sword with sufficient impetus, but a tight slash would impair and distract the opponent momentarily to allow for realignment. By this same token, a most salient entry by RYSAYS (1/Jan/2024) in the 2017 thread (ongoing) has his take on the notch supporting the 'wound' theory, and in this case to the aspects of the duel with sabers. In the 1836 "Essai sur de duel" by Louis Alfred le Blanc de Chatauvillad, it is noted in the regulations and protocols of dueling, it is forbidden to 'CHIP' the blade of an epee to cause illegitimate cuts in disputes settled by blood. While the saber is not specifically noted, it may be well presumed that officers of hussars did engage in dueling with sabers ("The Duelists" , 1978, film from the actual accounts of such events in hussars of the French cavalry during Napoleonic period....from the story by Joseph Conrad). Honor was typically indeed satisfied by the drawing of blood, and to notch a saber blade in this manner would profoundly intimate that the hussar who proudly bore this feature on his blade was indeed, the swaggering duelist known among the colorful reputation of hussars. It would seem that this notion was not something well known of course, and seems to have been around for many years as suggested by the early examples to the War of Spanish Succession (1701). There are many nuances of unusual practices and superstitious protocols which exist throughout the history of European military spheres, and these understandably are not typically found by the casual student of such history. There is a scholarly reticence to include such subjective matter in published material on military history. in fact specifics to swords themselves are typically restricted to whether they were curved, straight but little else if mentioned at all. While this practice of 'notching' seems to have indeed diffused throughout Europe likely along with the 'hussar phenomenon' (as indicated by its incidental occurrence in these cavalry units of other countries) it seems to have phased out. I would guess that its inception was in the Austro-Hungarian sphere with the remarkable attention to swordsmanship which prevailed there. Whether it was as initially as surmised a feature to incur distracting wounds in close quarters combat, or to ensure a non fatal blooded cut in a duel, the purpose of the 'notch' in my opinion is in this category. WONDERFUL SABER VICTRIX! and my thanks for posting it to bring this decades old mystery to at least a reasonably plausible solution.

11th February 2024, 08:09 PM	#9
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 695	Thank you, Jim. I’m pleased with the sabre and the notch adds an interesting collectable detail. You may well be right about the notch used mainly for duelling purposes. In Germanic lands especially there are well known customs at fraternities devoted to duelling and scars were proudly displayed. The notches could perhaps be used to draw blood without causing fatal injuries. Contemporary historic materials mention appalling wounds caused by sabres in times of war. - Last edited by fernando; 13th March 2024 at 08:31 PM. Reason: Please do not quote entire previous posts, just relevant small sections when necessary.

11th February 2024, 10:13 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	I think the reason these notches are relatively rare is that this was likely a limited affectation, which is again why it is never noted in accounts of hussar 'lore', It may be that the presumption of the 'gorier' purpose became broadly known, again in popular lore of the times. The Pandours had a notorious reputation for their depredations much in the same manner as dragoon regiments often had similar reputation. There was a colloquial expression of being 'dragooned' if memory serves. Perhaps, much in the way of the maligned saw tooth Schmidt-Rubin bayonet of WWI, which was seen to be a horrendous weapon to cause heinous wounding, so that allied forces finding one with a German soldier led to his summary execution.....these notched points were ground away. In reality these toothed bayonets were designed for utility use in assembling emplacements etc.....but the German soldiers hastily ground off the teeth on the blades to avoid the wrath of the allies if captured. As noted the 'symbolic' presence of these notched blades toward dueling, were likely applied in the manner described, to draw blood and satisfy resolution to a matter of infringed honor without fatality. As you mention, the German 'duels' using the lightweight schlager saber are fought with the sole purpose of acquiring a facial scar. This was seen as a mark of honor in accord with the flamboyant age of the hussar. This was known as the 'mensur' and one fencing master, very well known, who I communicated with on occasion, had fought at least three of these, which are apparently not fought that much these days as this was featured in the book, "By the Sword" (Cohen). Contrary to popular belief, duels were seldom fought to the death, and as these were pre arranged, the element of rage and adrenalin typically only became a factor if one combatant did something out of bounds etc. Once blood was drawn,even a scratch, the match was typically ended.

12th March 2024, 02:49 AM	#13
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	The discussion of the notches near the tip of these blades intrigues me. Might I offer an entirely mundane possible purpose. If you were to drop your gloves or your hat while in the saddle, having a long pointed stick with a barb at the end would make retrieving said item much easier. Absent a pointed stick, a sword with a notch at the end of the blade would do the trick. No need to dismount - simply reach down with your blade, use the hook to snag the item, and be on your merry way.