Silver Baskethilt Sword for comment

SwordLover79 · 31st January 2024, 06:22 PM

I recently acquired an interesting basket hilt sword from an old American collection. Possibly an older blade married to an more recent hilt. The owner (deceased) purchased it in the 1950's according to his family. Silver hilt marked with a Thistle preceded by the letters "RG" and the letter "Z". The hilt is 7.5" X 6.25" X 4.25". The blade is 36.25 inches long by 2 inches wide with 7 inch double fullers on both sides and pencil engraving adjacent to the fullers. A Crowned 6-point star on both sides of the ricasso. Within the fullers on one side of the blade engraved in large letters "PRO CHRISTO ET PATRIA". Engraved crosswise in smaller letters and much worn "FIDE SED CUI VIDE" and "NEC TEMERE NEC TIMIDE." My guess is that silver hilt are all unique. Any insights or suggestions are welcome!

Norman McCormick · 31st January 2024, 07:08 PM

Hi,
This would be a good place to start.
Regard,
Norman.

https://www.silvermakersmarks.co.uk/...tters%20Z.html

https://silvermakersmarks.co.uk/Make...urgh-R.html#RG

Radboud · 31st January 2024, 09:38 PM

What an interesting sword and great to see another silver basket hilt. As you say I also suspect the basket is later than the blade. Fortunately it is hallmarked which should help give us a more precise date.

I'd recommend that you post photos of the basket, sword and hallmarks on this forum, www.925-1000.com - Scottish Hallmarks they are the experts in my experience.

10thRoyal · 2nd February 2024, 07:39 PM

I'm not sure about the blade but I have a match for the maker of the basket at least. This one was a good brain teaser to find. I found a mention in "The Silver Spoon Club" magazine from 2006 that lists a spoon made by a Robert Gordon of Madras circa 1812 with a RG and thistle mark with a Z stamp. They even had a a picture of this stamp.

Your sword is getting more interesting by the minute!

Jim McDougall · 2nd February 2024, 08:17 PM

Absolutely Brilliant 10th!
As always, the answers to our questions as we try to identify swords are so often not in any 'sword' book!
Here we have our answer in a 'silver spoon book' yay!

So this hilt maker, and apparently his family were situated in Madras. The Scottish presence in India has been well known during the British Raj, and Madras (then Chennai) was a key East India Co. center, with a considerable Scottish community.

By analogy I think of a Pathan commander of the famed "Khyber Rifles" c. 1880s in a photograph holding a Scottish basket hilt. Also, there was a very interesting paper online titled "The Tiger and the Thistle" about the notable Scottish presence in the East India Company in the time of Tipu Sultan in Mysore (near Madras). The tiger was the symbol of Tipu Sultan.

So perhaps a remarkably made Scottish basket hilt in silver produced for an officer or someone of notable standing in Madras in the periods established by the hallmark. It is hard to say what this apparently heirloom blade might be from, but obviously the inset ricasso as seen in rapier blades suggests it is from an entirely different type of sword .
Now to find the maker or user of that punzone on the blade.

SwordLover79 · 5th February 2024, 05:02 PM

I truly appreciate the insights - what a great forum! Does anybody recognize the crowned star mark on the blade by any change?

10thRoyal · 6th February 2024, 05:22 PM

Jim those are some mighty kind words. And I think you are right on the money that the recessed ricasso points to something more along the lines of a 18th or 17th century rapier/calvary sword/"insert favorite variation of the word here". Something German maybe? As for the marking I haven't turned anything up but maybe someone has one of the more extensive catalogues on hand.

Are there any other potential markings on the ricasso besides the crowned star? Even if they are faint.

Jim McDougall · 6th February 2024, 06:54 PM

This is an INCREDIBLE sword!!!
I have been watching the series "Outlander" on Netflix, which though a 'romance' oriented story, it portrays the Scottish Highlands in the 18th century prior to, during and after Culloden.

Obviously my family heritage (McDougall et al) is from there (we had men at Culloden, but other clan names). The Jacobites had ties to Italy of course, and Prince Charles Stuart himself was born and raised there. While France was of course the key staging area for the 1745 Rebellion, the Catholic Faith, with the Vatican was naturally the revered center religiously for the Stuarts.

Here the blade form is clearly an early blade with phrases in Latin.
I found the marking in "Small Arms Makers", Robert Gardner, 1963, p.360;

It is to an unidentified armorer in Venice, from one found on a 'salade' helmet c. 1465(pictured). It is important to remember that armorers attended to overall outfitting with armor as well as weapons.

The attached image of the mark cites as a source 'Keasby' which is unknown to me (not in bibliography).
The recessed ricasso does seem unusual on this blade, which may be of course an Italian arming sword, but perhaps with a developed guard system of this period.

This may be a heirloom blade acquired by a Scot in the service of the Stuarts in Italy, and held by an ancestor in distinguished lineage, who likely had the sword itself (or perhaps just the blade?). Perhaps he was serving in India and had the blade mounted in this traditional basket hilt in silver.

Another possibility would be that the sword blade was already in India, as European trade was prevalent of course, and Italian swords, blades etc. (typically Venetian, key in Italian trade) were often notably acquired.

With the inscribed phrases, the primary of course PRO CHRISTO ET PATRIA (for Christ and country);
but FIDE SED CUI VID (loosely, 'have confidence but be careful in whom you trust' ) was a favored phrase notably on the armorial bearings of the NICOLL family).
The NEC TEMERE NE TIMIDE (= neither rashly nor timidly)

Clearly a blade which would have been treasured by a Jacobite owner, as well as by his descendant.

An amazing sword with profound historical potential!

SwordLover79 · 7th February 2024, 01:23 AM

Amazing insights as usual - Thanks Jim!!

NeilUK · 7th February 2024, 12:40 PM

I don't know if it will help but The American Arts Association held an auction in 1924 in which the collection of arms and armour of Henry Griffith Keasbey was sold. Apparently a mere $240 will get you a copy of the catalogue!
Neil

Jim McDougall · 7th February 2024, 04:05 PM

Brilliant Neil!!!! Thats some super sluething, thank you.

It is so intriguing to look into the 'golden age' of arms collecting, when valuable arms and armor were considered art and became part of amazing collections whose documentation formed the corpus of material for their study.

As you note, these early catalogs and references are exceedingly rare as they typically had short runs in publishing, so understandably are expensive in the rare cases they are offered.

While most of the material has been placed in subsequent works on the various types of items in accord with the topic, it is amazing to actually hold and peruse these old references, sort of a visit into time with the old sages of arms

There is NOTHING like the scent of old books!

NeilUK · 9th February 2024, 06:37 PM

Please forgive this slight detour into old A&A catalogues. I would hope that the Keasbey cat. might explain the mark. Unfortunately I do not possess a copy of the said cat. (wish I did as there were some choice weapons in the collection, apparently). i do have a few old cats, earliest 1927, and more modern ones - they tend to be cheaper than the actual arms and armour!
Neil

Jim McDougall · 9th February 2024, 08:00 PM

Not at all Neil!
These old catalogs are some of the most valuable references ever!
I remember back in the old days (B.C. =before computers), and before much of the great references we use these days were around, some of the mail order catalogues were our key means of identifying things.
One that comes to mind were those of "The Museum of Historical Arms" (Hoffman Brothers, Florida, 1970s) which even today are often sought after in old book sellers holdings.
As you note, these old catalogs are antiques in their own right, and command some pretty hefty prices....the items shown in them.....uh, outa the universe in price if even ever offered.

31st January 2024, 06:22 PM	#1
SwordLover79 Member Join Date: Jun 2022 Location: San Diego Posts: 56	Silver Baskethilt Sword for comment I recently acquired an interesting basket hilt sword from an old American collection. Possibly an older blade married to an more recent hilt. The owner (deceased) purchased it in the 1950's according to his family. Silver hilt marked with a Thistle preceded by the letters "RG" and the letter "Z". The hilt is 7.5" X 6.25" X 4.25". The blade is 36.25 inches long by 2 inches wide with 7 inch double fullers on both sides and pencil engraving adjacent to the fullers. A Crowned 6-point star on both sides of the ricasso. Within the fullers on one side of the blade engraved in large letters "PRO CHRISTO ET PATRIA". Engraved crosswise in smaller letters and much worn "FIDE SED CUI VIDE" and "NEC TEMERE NEC TIMIDE." My guess is that silver hilt are all unique. Any insights or suggestions are welcome! Attached Images

2nd February 2024, 07:39 PM	#4
10thRoyal Member Join Date: Apr 2021 Posts: 78	I'm not sure about the blade but I have a match for the maker of the basket at least. This one was a good brain teaser to find. I found a mention in "The Silver Spoon Club" magazine from 2006 that lists a spoon made by a Robert Gordon of Madras circa 1812 with a RG and thistle mark with a Z stamp. They even had a a picture of this stamp. Your sword is getting more interesting by the minute! Attached Images

6th February 2024, 06:54 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,954	This is an INCREDIBLE sword!!! I have been watching the series "Outlander" on Netflix, which though a 'romance' oriented story, it portrays the Scottish Highlands in the 18th century prior to, during and after Culloden. Obviously my family heritage (McDougall et al) is from there (we had men at Culloden, but other clan names). The Jacobites had ties to Italy of course, and Prince Charles Stuart himself was born and raised there. While France was of course the key staging area for the 1745 Rebellion, the Catholic Faith, with the Vatican was naturally the revered center religiously for the Stuarts. Here the blade form is clearly an early blade with phrases in Latin. I found the marking in "Small Arms Makers", Robert Gardner, 1963, p.360; It is to an unidentified armorer in Venice, from one found on a 'salade' helmet c. 1465(pictured). It is important to remember that armorers attended to overall outfitting with armor as well as weapons. The attached image of the mark cites as a source 'Keasby' which is unknown to me (not in bibliography). The recessed ricasso does seem unusual on this blade, which may be of course an Italian arming sword, but perhaps with a developed guard system of this period. This may be a heirloom blade acquired by a Scot in the service of the Stuarts in Italy, and held by an ancestor in distinguished lineage, who likely had the sword itself (or perhaps just the blade?). Perhaps he was serving in India and had the blade mounted in this traditional basket hilt in silver. Another possibility would be that the sword blade was already in India, as European trade was prevalent of course, and Italian swords, blades etc. (typically Venetian, key in Italian trade) were often notably acquired. With the inscribed phrases, the primary of course PRO CHRISTO ET PATRIA (for Christ and country); but FIDE SED CUI VID (loosely, 'have confidence but be careful in whom you trust' ) was a favored phrase notably on the armorial bearings of the NICOLL family). The NEC TEMERE NE TIMIDE (= neither rashly nor timidly) Clearly a blade which would have been treasured by a Jacobite owner, as well as by his descendant. An amazing sword with profound historical potential! Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 6th February 2024 at 07:14 PM.

7th February 2024, 04:05 PM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,954	Keasbey Catalogue Brilliant Neil!!!! Thats some super sluething, thank you. It is so intriguing to look into the 'golden age' of arms collecting, when valuable arms and armor were considered art and became part of amazing collections whose documentation formed the corpus of material for their study. As you note, these early catalogs and references are exceedingly rare as they typically had short runs in publishing, so understandably are expensive in the rare cases they are offered. While most of the material has been placed in subsequent works on the various types of items in accord with the topic, it is amazing to actually hold and peruse these old references, sort of a visit into time with the old sages of arms There is NOTHING like the scent of old books!

31st January 2024, 07:08 PM	#2
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,598	Hi, This would be a good place to start. Regard, Norman. https://www.silvermakersmarks.co.uk/...tters%20Z.html https://silvermakersmarks.co.uk/Make...urgh-R.html#RG

31st January 2024, 09:38 PM	#3
Radboud Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 261	What an interesting sword and great to see another silver basket hilt. As you say I also suspect the basket is later than the blade. Fortunately it is hallmarked which should help give us a more precise date. I'd recommend that you post photos of the basket, sword and hallmarks on this forum, www.925-1000.com - Scottish Hallmarks they are the experts in my experience.

2nd February 2024, 08:17 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,954	Absolutely Brilliant 10th! As always, the answers to our questions as we try to identify swords are so often not in any 'sword' book! Here we have our answer in a 'silver spoon book' yay! So this hilt maker, and apparently his family were situated in Madras. The Scottish presence in India has been well known during the British Raj, and Madras (then Chennai) was a key East India Co. center, with a considerable Scottish community. By analogy I think of a Pathan commander of the famed "Khyber Rifles" c. 1880s in a photograph holding a Scottish basket hilt. Also, there was a very interesting paper online titled "The Tiger and the Thistle" about the notable Scottish presence in the East India Company in the time of Tipu Sultan in Mysore (near Madras). The tiger was the symbol of Tipu Sultan. So perhaps a remarkably made Scottish basket hilt in silver produced for an officer or someone of notable standing in Madras in the periods established by the hallmark. It is hard to say what this apparently heirloom blade might be from, but obviously the inset ricasso as seen in rapier blades suggests it is from an entirely different type of sword . Now to find the maker or user of that punzone on the blade.

5th February 2024, 05:02 PM	#6
SwordLover79 Member Join Date: Jun 2022 Location: San Diego Posts: 56	I truly appreciate the insights - what a great forum! Does anybody recognize the crowned star mark on the blade by any change?

6th February 2024, 05:22 PM	#7
10thRoyal Member Join Date: Apr 2021 Posts: 78	Jim those are some mighty kind words. And I think you are right on the money that the recessed ricasso points to something more along the lines of a 18th or 17th century rapier/calvary sword/"insert favorite variation of the word here". Something German maybe? As for the marking I haven't turned anything up but maybe someone has one of the more extensive catalogues on hand. Are there any other potential markings on the ricasso besides the crowned star? Even if they are faint.

7th February 2024, 01:23 AM	#9
SwordLover79 Member Join Date: Jun 2022 Location: San Diego Posts: 56	Amazing insights as usual - Thanks Jim!!

7th February 2024, 12:40 PM	#10
NeilUK Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Scotland Posts: 125	I don't know if it will help but The American Arts Association held an auction in 1924 in which the collection of arms and armour of Henry Griffith Keasbey was sold. Apparently a mere $240 will get you a copy of the catalogue! Neil

9th February 2024, 06:37 PM	#12
NeilUK Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Scotland Posts: 125	Please forgive this slight detour into old A&A catalogues. I would hope that the Keasbey cat. might explain the mark. Unfortunately I do not possess a copy of the said cat. (wish I did as there were some choice weapons in the collection, apparently). i do have a few old cats, earliest 1927, and more modern ones - they tend to be cheaper than the actual arms and armour! Neil

9th February 2024, 08:00 PM	#13
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,954	Not at all Neil! These old catalogs are some of the most valuable references ever! I remember back in the old days (B.C. =before computers), and before much of the great references we use these days were around, some of the mail order catalogues were our key means of identifying things. One that comes to mind were those of "The Museum of Historical Arms" (Hoffman Brothers, Florida, 1970s) which even today are often sought after in old book sellers holdings. As you note, these old catalogs are antiques in their own right, and command some pretty hefty prices....the items shown in them.....uh, outa the universe in price if even ever offered.