Medieval sword - opinions needed

[AHorsa]

Dear all,

I would love to have your opinion on this sword. It is supposed to be a river find but as there are so many fakes today, I wonder if anyone finds something suspicious.
It is covered with a layer of glossy wax. The blade is pretty felxibel. The rivet is rivettet into a conic hole (at least it seems so for me).

Dimensions:
overall length: 104cm, Blade: 86cm, blade width: 5cm, parrier rod: 21,5cm, weight: 1200g

If some specific images are needed, please let me know.

Looking forward to your thoughts.

Kind regards
Andreas

[Teisani]

I can't say much, it looks nice. But, am I mistaken or is there a marking on the blade in your last picture? Or is it just deep corrosion?

[AHorsa]

Thanks for your reply. It is not a marking, it is a corrosion pit and a part of metal layer being undermined and liftet by corrosion as far as I can determine

A remark: on the third last image it looks like the crossguard is made from two pieces. What looks like a welding trace is just wax. The crossguard is made from one piece. The whole for the tang is fitted with two triangular pieces of steel inserted on both sides (see second last image)

[Teisani]

And thank you for the quick answer. The fact that such a large particle of steel fell of from corrosion makes me think that the steel is not so homogenous, meaning not a modern steel. Maybe other forum members can weigh in on this.

Overall, it's a nice looking piece, I can't find anything thing that would make me think it's a modern piece.

And yes, the wax seam on the cross-guard was a bit confusing, thanks for clarifying.

[AHorsa]

Thank you very much for your opinion Teisani!

[AHorsa]

Critical opinions are also very welcome

[fernando]

Originally Posted by AHorsa

Critical opinions are also very welcome

Andreas, it takes a lot of guts to risk buying these things. Assuming this is the real stuff and the seller was not missing his meds, it must have cost you the equivalent to a couple (or triple) of anyone's pension check.
Within my honest ignorance, i would not dare go into it, unless it was a 'honest' replica, like this one assumed to be a reproduction, made for pedagogic purposes.
Hopefully one of our members qualified in this subject pops up with a true diagnosis.
Pray the Gods your example is authentic !


.

[AHorsa]

Hi Fernando,

I very much appreciate your reply. It is absolutely not hursh but the truth. I am aware that this is a very dangerous field. In this case I know the sword and the seller since years as well as the background story of the sword. Otherwise I wouldn´t even contemplate such an acquisition. But the latter I cannot proof, although it is a pretty convincing story. The seller is a fine person and kindly is okay that I double check the sword. So I need to do by best to verify.

Fernando, the example you showed is an amazing example of how well made faked swords can be. Do you have better images of the structure of its surface?

Is there any scientific way to get such a piece checked? E.g. material analysis or so?

Thanks and kind regards
Andreas

[fernando]

Originally Posted by AHorsa

Do you have better images of the structure of its surface?...

I am afraid these are the two pictures i have; a courtesy of the current owner !

[Lee]

Originally Posted by fernando

...it takes a lot of guts to risk buying these things...

Indeed it does and the terrain is much more treacherous now than when I started collecting such things 40 years ago this month. I believe it has been more than a decade now since I have indulged.

Originally Posted by AHorsa

Is there any scientific way to get such a piece checked? E.g. material analysis or so?

Non-destructively, XRF (X-Ray Fluorescence) will report elemental composition of the surface for all but the lightest elements. The "devil is in the details" of interpreting the results. Sometimes one can 'denounce' a piece as a modern forgery on the basis of XRF, but the opposite of confirming authenticity is not possible, with "not inconsistent with an authentic antique" being about the best you can hope for.

Destructively, a small sample may be taken for metallographic examination. With a sword like Ahorsa's with a loose crossguard, a small sample from the blade shoulder may be taken without spoiling the appearance. Once I bought a sword from photographs, upon arrival it was clearly wrong. To satisfy the return requirement I had to get a museum to denounce it. Very fortunately I had a contact able to arrange for an archeometallurgist to take and examine such a specimen. It was clearly "post-Bessemer" or modern steel and the dealer graciously accepted the return. Once again, however, there are bladesmiths exploring making bloomery iron in the old ways and so, once again, "not inconsistent with an authentic antique" is about the best you can hope for. Fortunately, most forgers will not go to the trouble to avoid modern technology.

The aspiring medieval sword collector needs to see and handle as many known, reliably provenanced examples as possible and a few known forgeries as well to 'train' their eyes and brain. The overall form and decoration must be carefully considered as well as the patina.

I am cautiously optimistic towards Ahorsa's recent acquisition, and that is about the best I can do from images.

[cornelistromp]

Hi Andreas,
as a type this would be an Okeshott type Xa from around 1050-1100. after 900 years the oxidation of the sword looks very even over the entire surface. It is possible after 900 years but is almost unheard of, or at least so rare that it could be an omen.
After 2000, tens of thousands of most medieval sword forgeries were made, so it helps if the sword can be proven before 2000. So not through a story alone.
In any case I would try to find the previous owner or finder.
A medieval sword doesn't pop out of nowhere.
The black patina in water finds is goethite, which is glass hard and difficult to remove, even mechanically.
You could have the patina tested for hardness and chemically with, for example, acetone or other chemical solvent. If it gives off black, it is a recently applied patina.
The style is good but the tang is a bit slim under the pommel for this type with a heavy blade.
water finds from this period are included in the appendix.
I hope it will help you, good luck

[werecow]

That looks familiar... Is that the current exhibit in the Leiden Oudheden museum?

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by werecow

That looks familiar... Is that the current exhibit in the Leiden Oudheden museum?

a very nice exhibition!

[werecow]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

a very nice exhibition!

Indeed! Down the road from me. I've been meaning to go back for another viewing.

[fernando]

I thought those belonged in Jasper's collection !

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by fernando

I thought those belonged in Jasper's collection !

That would indeed have been possible, usually I only post my own collection pieces of content.

These pieces all date from around the year 1000 and were all found in Dutch soil-rivers, housed in various Dutch museums but brought together for the temporary exhibition in Leiden

[Reventlov]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

a very nice exhibition!

If only I were close enough to visit... I recognize several of the pieces, but not the large brazil-nut pommel in the foreground. It appears to have an inscription, and the label suggests it is a name? Grateful for any more details on this one (and apologies for being off-topic).

Mark

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Reventlov

If only I were close enough to visit... I recognize several of the pieces, but not the large brazil-nut pommel in the foreground. It appears to have an inscription, and the label suggests it is a name? Grateful for any more details on this one (and apologies for being off-topic).

Mark

HI Mark, the one with huge pommel has an Vlfberht inscription. the others also have interesting inscriptions. I will forward you the pics I made via messenger.

best

[AHorsa]

Dear All,

thank you very much for sharing your knowledge and your thoughts! Regarding the described possibilites by Lee to somehow determine in a scientific way: I would have access to an x-ray, but it is made for humans. As far as I know the power might be too low. I will check possibilities for a material analysis.

In any case I would try to find the previous owner or finder.
A medieval sword doesn't pop out of nowhere.

The sword was found 1977 by some workers in a river in the former GDR. A communal building officer, who was a collector, bought it from them and cleaned it. A friend of mine knew this this guy since childhood and bought the sword from him over ten years ago. That is the story but it is not possible to talk to the building officer anymore as he moved to another country and meanwhile he might have already passed away.

The black patina in water finds is goethite, which is glass hard and difficult to remove, even mechanically.
You could have the patina tested for hardness and chemically with, for example, acetone or other chemical solvent. If it gives off black, it is a recently applied patina.

The patina is resistant to solvent chemicals. But it is not super hard. I compared it to the remaining patina of my sword fragment (an archeolocial documented river find - http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21669) and it behaves pretty much indentical. It also looks very much the same. The patina in my eyes is surely not artificially added. But I don´t know if there are methods to get metal rapidly aged and patinated in a natural way?

I´d like to draw your attention to this "chip" mentioned by Teisani in the first reply. as explained this chip is undermined by black oxidation and sticks out. I tried to catch it in a better image and did a small drawing In my eyes this could not only be an indicator for folded steel, but also for some age. But I might be wrong.

The outer edge of the crossguard wasn´t cleaned propper and remains some brownish-orange adhesion. To me it looks very much like what I know from metal found in a river (I do often search the Rhine for relics when it has low water )

I added some more pictures that hopefully gives a better image of the oxidation / patina.

Regarding the condition: I think it very much depends on the composition of the water (content of oxygen, soil composition etc) as well as when the sword has fallen into it. There is this drawing from Albrecht Durer 1497, showing a person wearing a much older sword (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...28&postcount=6). I think swords where used for a very long time.

here are two examples from the Wallace Collection, where it seems to me the patination is similar:

https://wallacelive.wallacecollectio...p=F&sp=T&sp=94

https://wallacelive.wallacecollectio...lBlockKey&sp=0

Kind regards
Andreas

[AHorsa]

Here is a sword with a similar patination. Sadly there is no background information on it:

[cornelistromp]

Unfortunately, I cannot report anything additional than what has already been said.
Forgeries are made so faithfully that not much can be said about them based on photos alone.
That the patina does not dissolve is a good sign. If you want to be a little more certain, as Lee suggested, you can send a small chip from the shoulder or cutting edge for microscopic examination for inclusions.
However, unfortunately it only says something meaningful if new steel has been used.

X-ray can also provide more clarity, perhaps inscriptions are visible, including, for example info of the construction of the tang to the blade. Furthermore I would still advise to follow the trail of the story, any additional info will help.

best,

[Raf]

Originally Posted by AHorsa

Here is a sword with a similar patination. Sadly there is no background information on it:

Probably the only way to establish the authenticity of your sword is to understand how these extreme patinas on fake medieval swords are created. Which I assume involves reversing the process of electrolysis used to de rust authentic archaeological finds. This involves dumping the fake sword in a bath of water and washing soda , hook it up to an arc welder and stand well back . The sword is connected to the positive side of the power supply and the negative side to iron plates suspended in the solution. Negative ions (oxygen ) are attracted to the anode, the oxygen combines with the iron and forms the rust. The longer the process or the higher the amperage the more of the iron is etched away. Once pitting has begun some complicated metallurgy takes place which means the pits get deeper creating the irregularly surface associated with genuine decomposition of an iron object. I hope this explanation is in principal correct but if it isnt I’m sure someone more knowledgeably will correct me.

So far so good. The sword will have an orange rust surface which is unlikely to be convincing unless its being offered as a recently excavated find. Options then are to revere the polarity to strip off the recently acquired rust in which case the appearance will be an object that has been electrolytically cleaned. Alternatively remove some , but not all of the rust and use a rust converter (tannic acid) to chemically convert the reddish iron oxides into bluish-black ferric tannate, a more stable material associated with old well established rust.

Rather than comparing the patina on your sword to authenticated examples it might be useful to compare it to the patina on obviously faked examples . A trip round the net will provide plenty of spurious objects that have been aged in this way . Bradfords auctioneers has some good examples of genuine fake medieval swords and helmets. It might be possible to see if there are any minute differences between naturally occurring and electrolytically simulated ageing that might tip the balance one way or other.

[AHorsa]

Thank you very much for your explanations Raf!

The auction house is indeed a good source for axamples of artificial patina. I studied them and I can´t find corresponding examples. It looks different and much more inhomogenious on my sword.

When I find the time I will try to reproduce this electrolysis aging process. might be interesting.

Kind regards
Andreas

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

Unfortunately, I cannot report anything additional than what has already been said.
Forgeries are made so faithfully that not much can be said about them based on photos alone.
That the patina does not dissolve is a good sign. If you want to be a little more certain, as Lee suggested, you can send a small chip from the shoulder or cutting edge for microscopic examination for inclusions.
However, unfortunately it only says something meaningful if new steel has been used.

X-ray can also provide more clarity, perhaps inscriptions are visible, including, for example info of the construction of the tang to the blade. Furthermore I would still advise to follow the trail of the story, any additional info will help.

best,

edit 10-02
I have studied some different surface photos, details and dimensions that have been sent to me and I have to say that it looks promising that this could indeed be an original piece.
I'm curious about the further search and confirmations.
best
Jasper

[Raf]

Hi Andreas. Pleased you found my comments helpfull. If you decide to experiment mind how you go . Electrolisis releases both oxygen and hydrogen and potentially harmful gasses. Maybe a long shot but is occurred to me that an artificially patinated surface might contain traces of the electolite used. Washing soda is extremely alkaline with a pH level of 11. So if it was possible to test the corrosion a low PH might suggest that the patina was not artificially induced. Im leaning to the view that your sword is genuine.

[AHorsa]

Thank you very much gentlemen! I am happy to hear / read that!

[AHorsa]

Dear All,

today I had the opportunity to do an x-ray and I´d love to share the two findings of this analysis:

- the guard is folded

- the black structures (less dense material) on the pommel do not correlate with corrosion pittings. My assumption is, that this could be impuritises or inclusions. Maybe the carbon was not hammered out proper of this "lump" of steel?

But I have no idea if this means something. Maybe one of you can tell more on it.

Kind regards
Andreas

[Raf]

I would be happy with that. I was impressed by the way the pommel has been fitted so closely to the tang. As if the pommel had been drilled, heated and driven on to the cold tang. I dont know wether a faker would bother with this kind of invisible detail.

[Lee]

Just as the crossguard shows darker (more radiolucent) areas of less density suggesting old weld or fold lines from the forging process, the pommel also likely has such areas within its mass that appear as these darker spots in this view, but might look more like imperfect welds if the pommel were rotated 90 degrees.

Also, the blade appears to show more corrosive loss than the hilt elements or tang. This may reflect a different composition of material and perhaps protection for a while longer by a covering guard and is not unusual in my experience.

[Tim Simmons]

Really interesting!!!!