Main Gauche or Misercorde Dagger

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks very much Fernando, my best wishes for very Happy Holidays to you as well!

The Wallace Collection work by Sir James Mann is of course superb! and of course I use this reference as much as you do as it offers comprehensive details on arms and especially markings that are unmatched in other sources.

I must apologize for the reference I used being cause for such consternation, and used it as it was actually at hand in some research on fencing at the moment.

Actually the book by Egerton Castle I referenced was written by him in 1885, just after his contemporary Sir Richard Burton wrote his "Book of the Sword" in 1884. While Burton, like Castle, was Master of Arms, he had chosen to focus on the sword forms of the world, without attention to the actual manner in use.
Castle, decided he would write on that aspect, the actual use.

In Castle's book, he inscribed it to BARON DE COSSON and CAPT A HUTTON, his colleagues, "....in recollection of many hours spent with the former, among old books and old arms, with the latter in the fencing room, foil in hand".

Both Castle and Hutton were Masters at Arms who studied, practiced and taught historical fencing, and both military men who were brilliant swordsmen.
BARON CHARLES ALEXANDER deCOSSON (1846-1929) was hardly just some collector. He was well known as a HIGH authority on the subject of ancient arms and armor.......also WARING FAULDER was another of the most experienced connoisseurs of the time, with both of these men offering weapons from their magnificent collections for Egerton's book.

While the plate of photos is of course 'poor quality' (early 1880s) and the cataloging might have been more precise to each weapon, it was still significant at the time. The 'cinqueda' among these you will note was termed an 'anelace'. This term applied to a type of large dagger carried by English gentlemen in the 14th c.
The arms writer Auguste Demmin (1877) used that term to describe the Italian cinquedea, so likely it was carried forth by Castle here.

So not at all discounting what you are saying, however my point was there was not any clear distinction in styling of these daggers apparent from the late 16th century well into the 17th. I had hoped my entry and images would have illustrated what I was saying.

What is fascinating to me is that Egerton Castle; Baron de Cosson; Capt. Alfred Hutton; Sir Richard Burton were all contemporaries who were deeply involved in the study of ancient arms and armor, in particular, the sword, and actually used them..........not just reading of them in books.
Incidentally all of these men wrote the books that many of us have used in our own studies, as they set the foundations for the study of arms as it stands today.

[fernando]

Dear Jim, it is i who is the dissident, thus the apologetic one, for reaching the books is not what i can do best, as my library is a no library; my resources coming from a few pages read here and there. For one, i wasn't famliar with the term Anelace, which i now know its origin is based on how this weapon was suspened from the waist (girdle). Yet i still am more fan of the term Cinquedea, based on how wide its blade was, (five fingers) on its base.
One other thing is how Mr. Castle names figures 6 to 12 as 'shell' daggers, which i find hard to assimilate. In fact these are consensually called 'sail' (guard) daggers, or 'dagas de vela'. Shell daggers are a different thing. His connotation of these being (occasionally ?) sword breakers (as per your 1 - stressed paragraph), perhaps deserves a 'separation of the waters'. They were no doubt left hand weapons.The fact that some had breaking sword implements in them is only an occasional fantasy, notwithstanding the basic purpose of these daggers.
Yours humbly !



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[Jim McDougall]

Actually, I had no idea of the term either until I looked it up online yesterday, and truthfully saw a cinquedea oddly in this plate from Castle, wondering WHY it was with left hand daggers! Books are a wonderful thing, however, they have severe limitations, and have always been hard to come by. Most of these I have cited were rare books even in my early days of collecting and I could only access them via interlibrary loan and photocopy pages.

Thankfully we now have the web, and many new references, with these classics now reprinted and readily available. This is good..........as the 'bookmobile' does not have room for a library of notable presence

As you note on the 'cinquedea', that is the PROPER term for these Italian large daggers, which were worn actually in the small of the back. My note to the use of 'anelace' as the term for what we know is 'cinquedea' was to show how the antiquarians of this 19th c. period used terms rather 'unusually', and how Demmin, one of their contemporaries was the source they followed.

Your notes on the 'sail' daggers are well placed and as always fascinating.
One of the most intriguing things for me over the years studying here are the remarkable notes and colorful terminology you have always shared which illustrate the Portuguese and Spanish perspectives on these arms. These I have copied into notes that augment these references I have otherwise, as it is material entirely valuable and NOT found in any books I have.

The highlights on the page shown were not intended for anything in this discussion, but were result of research years ago on these, and were as noted with regard to the often fanciful notions of many of these unusual features.

The best thing in our discussions are the dynamics of shared ideas and supportive evidence, which are, as seen here, most helpful seen together comprehensively regardless of source material. I know I've learned a great deal on these daggers in this, and hope the readers have as well.

As always
Jim

[fernando]

Wait until i tell you the name given to the cinquedeia by the Portuguese; LINGUA DE VACA = COW TONGUE. Easy to know why, when you think of the blade shape .




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[sabertasche]

Thank you all for commenting on my new acquisition. As always I am in awe of the breadth of knowledge within the Forum.

Greg