Main Gauche or Misercorde Dagger

Jim McDougall · 20th December 2023, 10:49 PM

The 'main gauche' thing is IMO a bit overplayed usually, these pretty much fell out if use, at least in the fencing aspect by the end of the 17th c. but daggers, presumably of this basic form did remain worn as secondary weapon. While fencing was typically not necessarily a duel to death, in many situations involving sword to sword combat such as brawls or melee in civilian setting (i.e. Italy as in Shakespearean dramas) the dagger became key when close quarters tussle rendered further use of sword/rapier impossible.

Though this example seems to have the presumed look of a misercorde, that particular weapon had not been in use for some time, these were of course allegedly for 'coup de grace' to mortally wounded knight. While this rather dramatic notion was popularized in the annals of chivalry, these were more for the same close quarters combat as they were intended to penetrate any open area in armor whether gaps or damage.

That the classic design might well have been carried into the theme of this interesting example seems likely, and the intriguing six point star in cartouche seems to have a symbolic character as in architectural motif, more research would be most interesting. The blade seems aligned with daggers of late 16th to 17th c. but I would defer more on that to experts.

Egerton Castle, "Schools and Masters of Fence" (1885) examples 8,10,14 , plate IV, shows three examples of this basic form as cross hilted daggers of Baron de Cosson, coll. 16th c. Italian seems likely, but of course hard to say as Italian influences strongly diffused into other arms centers.

Jim McDougall · 21st December 2023, 08:42 PM

As the readership on this thread is resounding it seems, nearing 2000 views in 4 days! I thought I could at least try to stay active, so hit the books! to find more on the interesting device in the raised guard ring.

This appears to be a 'chrismon' monogram of Christ, which resembles an ancient pagan sun wheel. ..however is transposed letter I over a Greek X.
This rather explains the 'ecclesiastical' feel to the device, noting how many hilt themes and elements included religiously oriented basis.

Thanks for posting this Greg, always fun to have something to research, I didnt know much on these until I opened the books two days ago.

fernando · 22nd December 2023, 01:17 PM

In my worthless opinion, i would not discard that this is potentially a left hand (main gauche) dagger, notwithstanding that its guard features have a somehow unusual design, both the (one only) direction curved quillons and specially the guard device, being not a ring but a solid disc. Judging by the fact that there aren't many like these out there, we may presume this was the whim of some wealthy client.
OTOH, whatever the signification of this finger guard design may be, i suspect such is not yet deciphered.
But then and again, my assumption is to be taken with lots of salt.

-

Jim McDougall · 22nd December 2023, 03:17 PM

Thank you for your addition Fernando, and as always you underestimate the value of your keen insights from many years of experience in handling and exposure to weapons of these times. The key thing is that you 'post' and at least express your thoughts. A discussion requires input, thoughts, ideas, in order to put together a reasonable perspective on a topic or subject item.

As I mentioned, I know very little on these, and actually have never seen or handled an actual example, but I do know how to look things up, and its not just my own books, with the web these days, most anything can be found.

I cannot help but wonder, in this huge volume of views in just a matter of days that shows distinct interest, why no entries with thoughts or observations?

There are of course obvious answers, but I am of course more focused on the fact that this weapon has prompted the opportunity to learn, and I have, just as you, entered what I could.
Actually what you have noted is important as it emphasizes that this daggers use as a 'main gauche' cannot be ruled out. Castle (1885) did in fact note that while these 'left hand daggers' had fallen largely 'out of use' in that capacity by end of 17th c...............their character had become more in this lighter manner. While mostly straight quillons and simple ring guard in typical examples, this one seems to have been clearly more elegant, suggesting perhaps it may have indeed been an 'en suite' pairing and to an owner of notable station or position.

The question asked in the OP was generally, how old? what country? etc.
The reality of the study of historical arms is of course, without distinct and irrefutable provenance, speculation and ratiocination is all there is.

fernando · 22nd December 2023, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... Castle (1885) did in fact note that while these 'left hand daggers' had fallen largely 'out of use' in that capacity by end of 17th c...............

Do you have any reasoning which opposes that this dagger falls within such period, Jim ? Actually, well within... i would bet

.
And by the way, this pommel is also an intriguing work of art. I wonder what is that yellowish (?) material showing off between the steel spaces. Maybe Greg could tell us ?

Jim McDougall · 22nd December 2023, 06:21 PM

Actually, as far as reasoning, no........I am relying more on the material providing expert opinion/reasoning, of the author Egerton Castle (1885), in PLATE IV......note item #4 shown as 16th c......while 8 and 10 are remarkably similar shown as 17th.

While this plate simply refers to these items as 'daggers' (not otherwise specified) the examples I cited show the propensity for early forms remaining popular in later times (early 16th example to 17th c.).

I have added a page of text that has pertinent data as well.

Tenuously, might I suggest that perhaps the 'notching' in the pommel may be an aesthetic nod toward the 'pie shaped' pommels popular in eastern/central Europe in early mid 17th century as well as N. Italy with some schiavona (attached personal notes) ...these known as
Kosarice. Obviously tenuous as noted, it seemed worth mention as it seems unusual to notch a pommel in this manner.

As far as the yellow, I think maybe just lighting in the photo? rather than actual coloration.

fernando · 22nd December 2023, 08:21 PM

Jim, as i hardly managed to find a path to learn and discuss these things, your material on Mr. Castle set me back significantly. His chart of someone's collection on daggers 'in general' which, apart of unequivocal cinquedeas and 'sail' left handers, leaves me unable to distinguish the fine line among the other so similar examples, some with dates omitted; poor quality pictures not helping either. A fine line may also be raised when approaching 16th or 17th centuries; their beginning and their end, before or after, etc., this when we talk about when determined styles ended their activity.
When sticking to left hand daggers properly, if we consult James Mann's Wallace collection, we notice that their dates versus their styles, seem to be discrepant from Mr. Castle criterion. A798 with wide quillons is dated about 1600; A793 Italian with wide bent quillons (and guard ring) is dated about 1590; A805 about 1600, and others more.
Obviously i may as well be dealing with an (English) language insufficiency and also attribute no fair interpretation of Mr. Castle chart and his quotations, and therefore i am talking plain rubbish. If so, just say the word and i withdraw all that i have said.
Wishing you a Merry Christmas

.

20th December 2023, 10:49 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,896	The 'main gauche' thing is IMO a bit overplayed usually, these pretty much fell out if use, at least in the fencing aspect by the end of the 17th c. but daggers, presumably of this basic form did remain worn as secondary weapon. While fencing was typically not necessarily a duel to death, in many situations involving sword to sword combat such as brawls or melee in civilian setting (i.e. Italy as in Shakespearean dramas) the dagger became key when close quarters tussle rendered further use of sword/rapier impossible. Though this example seems to have the presumed look of a misercorde, that particular weapon had not been in use for some time, these were of course allegedly for 'coup de grace' to mortally wounded knight. While this rather dramatic notion was popularized in the annals of chivalry, these were more for the same close quarters combat as they were intended to penetrate any open area in armor whether gaps or damage. That the classic design might well have been carried into the theme of this interesting example seems likely, and the intriguing six point star in cartouche seems to have a symbolic character as in architectural motif, more research would be most interesting. The blade seems aligned with daggers of late 16th to 17th c. but I would defer more on that to experts. Egerton Castle, "Schools and Masters of Fence" (1885) examples 8,10,14 , plate IV, shows three examples of this basic form as cross hilted daggers of Baron de Cosson, coll. 16th c. Italian seems likely, but of course hard to say as Italian influences strongly diffused into other arms centers. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 20th December 2023 at 11:09 PM.

22nd December 2023, 01:17 PM	#3
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	In my worthless opinion, i would not discard that this is potentially a left hand (main gauche) dagger, notwithstanding that its guard features have a somehow unusual design, both the (one only) direction curved quillons and specially the guard device, being not a ring but a solid disc. Judging by the fact that there aren't many like these out there, we may presume this was the whim of some wealthy client. OTOH, whatever the signification of this finger guard design may be, i suspect such is not yet deciphered. But then and again, my assumption is to be taken with lots of salt. - Last edited by fernando; 22nd December 2023 at 02:17 PM. Reason: Spell

22nd December 2023, 06:21 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,896	Actually, as far as reasoning, no........I am relying more on the material providing expert opinion/reasoning, of the author Egerton Castle (1885), in PLATE IV......note item #4 shown as 16th c......while 8 and 10 are remarkably similar shown as 17th. While this plate simply refers to these items as 'daggers' (not otherwise specified) the examples I cited show the propensity for early forms remaining popular in later times (early 16th example to 17th c.). I have added a page of text that has pertinent data as well. Tenuously, might I suggest that perhaps the 'notching' in the pommel may be an aesthetic nod toward the 'pie shaped' pommels popular in eastern/central Europe in early mid 17th century as well as N. Italy with some schiavona (attached personal notes) ...these known as Kosarice. Obviously tenuous as noted, it seemed worth mention as it seems unusual to notch a pommel in this manner. As far as the yellow, I think maybe just lighting in the photo? rather than actual coloration. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 22nd December 2023 at 06:39 PM.

21st December 2023, 08:42 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,896	As the readership on this thread is resounding it seems, nearing 2000 views in 4 days! I thought I could at least try to stay active, so hit the books! to find more on the interesting device in the raised guard ring. This appears to be a 'chrismon' monogram of Christ, which resembles an ancient pagan sun wheel. ..however is transposed letter I over a Greek X. This rather explains the 'ecclesiastical' feel to the device, noting how many hilt themes and elements included religiously oriented basis. Thanks for posting this Greg, always fun to have something to research, I didnt know much on these until I opened the books two days ago.

22nd December 2023, 03:17 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,896	Thank you for your addition Fernando, and as always you underestimate the value of your keen insights from many years of experience in handling and exposure to weapons of these times. The key thing is that you 'post' and at least express your thoughts. A discussion requires input, thoughts, ideas, in order to put together a reasonable perspective on a topic or subject item. As I mentioned, I know very little on these, and actually have never seen or handled an actual example, but I do know how to look things up, and its not just my own books, with the web these days, most anything can be found. I cannot help but wonder, in this huge volume of views in just a matter of days that shows distinct interest, why no entries with thoughts or observations? There are of course obvious answers, but I am of course more focused on the fact that this weapon has prompted the opportunity to learn, and I have, just as you, entered what I could. Actually what you have noted is important as it emphasizes that this daggers use as a 'main gauche' cannot be ruled out. Castle (1885) did in fact note that while these 'left hand daggers' had fallen largely 'out of use' in that capacity by end of 17th c...............their character had become more in this lighter manner. While mostly straight quillons and simple ring guard in typical examples, this one seems to have been clearly more elegant, suggesting perhaps it may have indeed been an 'en suite' pairing and to an owner of notable station or position. The question asked in the OP was generally, how old? what country? etc. The reality of the study of historical arms is of course, without distinct and irrefutable provenance, speculation and ratiocination is all there is.

22nd December 2023, 08:21 PM	#7
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Jim, as i hardly managed to find a path to learn and discuss these things, your material on Mr. Castle set me back significantly. His chart of someone's collection on daggers 'in general' which, apart of unequivocal cinquedeas and 'sail' left handers, leaves me unable to distinguish the fine line among the other so similar examples, some with dates omitted; poor quality pictures not helping either. A fine line may also be raised when approaching 16th or 17th centuries; their beginning and their end, before or after, etc., this when we talk about when determined styles ended their activity. When sticking to left hand daggers properly, if we consult James Mann's Wallace collection, we notice that their dates versus their styles, seem to be discrepant from Mr. Castle criterion. A798 with wide quillons is dated about 1600; A793 Italian with wide bent quillons (and guard ring) is dated about 1590; A805 about 1600, and others more. Obviously i may as well be dealing with an (English) language insufficiency and also attribute no fair interpretation of Mr. Castle chart and his quotations, and therefore i am talking plain rubbish. If so, just say the word and i withdraw all that i have said. Wishing you a Merry Christmas .