Main Gauche or Misercorde Dagger

fernando · 17th December 2023, 04:50 PM

Let the more knowledged members give you an adequate answer, Greg. Italian, maybe ... i don't know

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fernando · 19th December 2023, 10:52 AM

So surprising. No one pops in with some comments !

Kmaddock · 19th December 2023, 11:40 AM

I can add no knowledge to this thread but just to echo Fernando's comments that you have a beautiful acquisition there and a real stand out piece. One I am sure many of us would love to have in our collections,
Well done you
Regards
Ken

Jim McDougall · 20th December 2023, 10:49 PM

The 'main gauche' thing is IMO a bit overplayed usually, these pretty much fell out if use, at least in the fencing aspect by the end of the 17th c. but daggers, presumably of this basic form did remain worn as secondary weapon. While fencing was typically not necessarily a duel to death, in many situations involving sword to sword combat such as brawls or melee in civilian setting (i.e. Italy as in Shakespearean dramas) the dagger became key when close quarters tussle rendered further use of sword/rapier impossible.

Though this example seems to have the presumed look of a misercorde, that particular weapon had not been in use for some time, these were of course allegedly for 'coup de grace' to mortally wounded knight. While this rather dramatic notion was popularized in the annals of chivalry, these were more for the same close quarters combat as they were intended to penetrate any open area in armor whether gaps or damage.

That the classic design might well have been carried into the theme of this interesting example seems likely, and the intriguing six point star in cartouche seems to have a symbolic character as in architectural motif, more research would be most interesting. The blade seems aligned with daggers of late 16th to 17th c. but I would defer more on that to experts.

Egerton Castle, "Schools and Masters of Fence" (1885) examples 8,10,14 , plate IV, shows three examples of this basic form as cross hilted daggers of Baron de Cosson, coll. 16th c. Italian seems likely, but of course hard to say as Italian influences strongly diffused into other arms centers.

Jim McDougall · 21st December 2023, 08:42 PM

As the readership on this thread is resounding it seems, nearing 2000 views in 4 days! I thought I could at least try to stay active, so hit the books! to find more on the interesting device in the raised guard ring.

This appears to be a 'chrismon' monogram of Christ, which resembles an ancient pagan sun wheel. ..however is transposed letter I over a Greek X.
This rather explains the 'ecclesiastical' feel to the device, noting how many hilt themes and elements included religiously oriented basis.

Thanks for posting this Greg, always fun to have something to research, I didnt know much on these until I opened the books two days ago.

fernando · 22nd December 2023, 01:17 PM

In my worthless opinion, i would not discard that this is potentially a left hand (main gauche) dagger, notwithstanding that its guard features have a somehow unusual design, both the (one only) direction curved quillons and specially the guard device, being not a ring but a solid disc. Judging by the fact that there aren't many like these out there, we may presume this was the whim of some wealthy client.
OTOH, whatever the signification of this finger guard design may be, i suspect such is not yet deciphered.
But then and again, my assumption is to be taken with lots of salt.

-

Jim McDougall · 22nd December 2023, 03:17 PM

Thank you for your addition Fernando, and as always you underestimate the value of your keen insights from many years of experience in handling and exposure to weapons of these times. The key thing is that you 'post' and at least express your thoughts. A discussion requires input, thoughts, ideas, in order to put together a reasonable perspective on a topic or subject item.

As I mentioned, I know very little on these, and actually have never seen or handled an actual example, but I do know how to look things up, and its not just my own books, with the web these days, most anything can be found.

I cannot help but wonder, in this huge volume of views in just a matter of days that shows distinct interest, why no entries with thoughts or observations?

There are of course obvious answers, but I am of course more focused on the fact that this weapon has prompted the opportunity to learn, and I have, just as you, entered what I could.
Actually what you have noted is important as it emphasizes that this daggers use as a 'main gauche' cannot be ruled out. Castle (1885) did in fact note that while these 'left hand daggers' had fallen largely 'out of use' in that capacity by end of 17th c...............their character had become more in this lighter manner. While mostly straight quillons and simple ring guard in typical examples, this one seems to have been clearly more elegant, suggesting perhaps it may have indeed been an 'en suite' pairing and to an owner of notable station or position.

The question asked in the OP was generally, how old? what country? etc.
The reality of the study of historical arms is of course, without distinct and irrefutable provenance, speculation and ratiocination is all there is.

20th December 2023, 10:49 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,931	The 'main gauche' thing is IMO a bit overplayed usually, these pretty much fell out if use, at least in the fencing aspect by the end of the 17th c. but daggers, presumably of this basic form did remain worn as secondary weapon. While fencing was typically not necessarily a duel to death, in many situations involving sword to sword combat such as brawls or melee in civilian setting (i.e. Italy as in Shakespearean dramas) the dagger became key when close quarters tussle rendered further use of sword/rapier impossible. Though this example seems to have the presumed look of a misercorde, that particular weapon had not been in use for some time, these were of course allegedly for 'coup de grace' to mortally wounded knight. While this rather dramatic notion was popularized in the annals of chivalry, these were more for the same close quarters combat as they were intended to penetrate any open area in armor whether gaps or damage. That the classic design might well have been carried into the theme of this interesting example seems likely, and the intriguing six point star in cartouche seems to have a symbolic character as in architectural motif, more research would be most interesting. The blade seems aligned with daggers of late 16th to 17th c. but I would defer more on that to experts. Egerton Castle, "Schools and Masters of Fence" (1885) examples 8,10,14 , plate IV, shows three examples of this basic form as cross hilted daggers of Baron de Cosson, coll. 16th c. Italian seems likely, but of course hard to say as Italian influences strongly diffused into other arms centers. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 20th December 2023 at 11:09 PM.

22nd December 2023, 01:17 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	In my worthless opinion, i would not discard that this is potentially a left hand (main gauche) dagger, notwithstanding that its guard features have a somehow unusual design, both the (one only) direction curved quillons and specially the guard device, being not a ring but a solid disc. Judging by the fact that there aren't many like these out there, we may presume this was the whim of some wealthy client. OTOH, whatever the signification of this finger guard design may be, i suspect such is not yet deciphered. But then and again, my assumption is to be taken with lots of salt. - Last edited by fernando; 22nd December 2023 at 02:17 PM. Reason: Spell

17th December 2023, 04:50 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Let the more knowledged members give you an adequate answer, Greg. Italian, maybe ... i don't know .

19th December 2023, 10:52 AM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	So surprising. No one pops in with some comments !

19th December 2023, 11:40 AM	#3
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 542	I can add no knowledge to this thread but just to echo Fernando's comments that you have a beautiful acquisition there and a real stand out piece. One I am sure many of us would love to have in our collections, Well done you Regards Ken

21st December 2023, 08:42 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,931	As the readership on this thread is resounding it seems, nearing 2000 views in 4 days! I thought I could at least try to stay active, so hit the books! to find more on the interesting device in the raised guard ring. This appears to be a 'chrismon' monogram of Christ, which resembles an ancient pagan sun wheel. ..however is transposed letter I over a Greek X. This rather explains the 'ecclesiastical' feel to the device, noting how many hilt themes and elements included religiously oriented basis. Thanks for posting this Greg, always fun to have something to research, I didnt know much on these until I opened the books two days ago.

22nd December 2023, 03:17 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,931	Thank you for your addition Fernando, and as always you underestimate the value of your keen insights from many years of experience in handling and exposure to weapons of these times. The key thing is that you 'post' and at least express your thoughts. A discussion requires input, thoughts, ideas, in order to put together a reasonable perspective on a topic or subject item. As I mentioned, I know very little on these, and actually have never seen or handled an actual example, but I do know how to look things up, and its not just my own books, with the web these days, most anything can be found. I cannot help but wonder, in this huge volume of views in just a matter of days that shows distinct interest, why no entries with thoughts or observations? There are of course obvious answers, but I am of course more focused on the fact that this weapon has prompted the opportunity to learn, and I have, just as you, entered what I could. Actually what you have noted is important as it emphasizes that this daggers use as a 'main gauche' cannot be ruled out. Castle (1885) did in fact note that while these 'left hand daggers' had fallen largely 'out of use' in that capacity by end of 17th c...............their character had become more in this lighter manner. While mostly straight quillons and simple ring guard in typical examples, this one seems to have been clearly more elegant, suggesting perhaps it may have indeed been an 'en suite' pairing and to an owner of notable station or position. The question asked in the OP was generally, how old? what country? etc. The reality of the study of historical arms is of course, without distinct and irrefutable provenance, speculation and ratiocination is all there is.