New Member-Help please on 2 18th C sabres

[Hanger1]

Hello Members,

I am happy to be a part of the site. I am normally a nihonto and indo-persian collector, but I have entered the fray of European swords after genealogy research discovered much British Regular and Provincial army duties in the colonies’ early days(1600s), French and Indian War/Seven Years war and beyond. I come from long lines of military service throughout my direct genealogy.

Thus I have two sabres to present for some help on if you could.

The first is a brass, stirrup hilted petit Montmorency blade with celestial markings similar to Peter Munich’s marks but from what I read here, does not indicate necessarily him from Solingen. I got that information from the older makers mark threads here. I can’t find anything close to the stirrup hilt either so that is also a mystery. The closest I have found is a French Dragoon officer

The second sword is apparently a French Revolution, petits Montmorency type blade with brass hilt with a cutlass, hacking blade instead of the true Montmorency blade. This blade has “Vaincre ou Mourir” on it. The curious thing about this one, is that it was re-peened, and as it was disassembled, there was a makers mark on the tang that I can’t attribute to anything other than most likely Solingen and an independent maker is my guess. My hope is to get a hit here. The blade has major battle damage, with probably 50 diamond shaped edge hits. This may have been one of those “dropped” swords after the owner may not have fared too well.

I am providing pictures the best I can within the guidelines, so if I need to post better ones, I certainly will. Thanks in advance. BTW the red tinge on the blade is not active rust but my red jacket Other than the battle damage and some oxidation, the blade is in beautiful shape.

Jeff

[Peter Hudson]

See the thread on Montmorency swords at http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...ht=Montmorency

[Hanger1]

Thanks Peter. I did see that and it is certainly helpful. One of the best writings I have seen on Petits Montmorency is in the monthly periodical Gazette des Armes issues 368,421, 442, and 475. I was able to read them through a free service that lets you read each online. If anyone is interested I’d be glad to provide the link. It’s in French but I translated it.

I have also found the sword’s brother out there that was recently sold in the market but no details on the steel or maker. I am fairly sure it’s not Klingenthaler or Chatellerault as they would be obvious, like the Virginia Provincial blades for Washington.

[corrado26]

Herre you have a similar piece:

[Hanger1]

Thank you corrado26, every bit helps. The main thing on that sword is the makers mark. I think it will end up being a Solingen independent maker no one has heard of. The owner before me had tried to figure that out as well with no answers. The sword you provided is made by the Klingenthal, Bas-Rhin royal manufacturing facility, and are marked so, just like the briquets supplied to Washington in Virginia.

[Hanger1]

Wow, almost 1000 views and no answers. These 2 must be real stumpers. From my own research, continuing here and elsewhere, the first blade could be a Cassagnard sabre with the hilt being a custom. Looks very similar to stirrup hilts for Hussar type, LC blades of that time. The grooves and smooth capstan are the mystery.

The makers mark on the other, probably an individual Solingen maker with his own mark.

Thanks for those that replied early on. It helped confirm my direction.

[Jim McDougall]

Interesting sabers, and I would point out that the topic of French swords is only nominally (at best) traveled as it is a highly specialized field. Fortunately there are a few around who specialize in degree enough in European swords to contribute important details.
I have personally always wished I could get further into the field, but research material is obscure, expensive as are of course the weapons themselves.

As someone who collects Nihonto and Indo-Persian you are of course well accustomed to formidable topics.

What I can add here is that, categorization of officers swords from 17th through 18th century is typically a conundrum at best, as officers were inclined to have essentially carte blanche in their weapons. These were typically commissioned to cutlers and outfitters who followed popular styles and patterns of the locale, period, and personal whims of the individual. While they often added the devices and symbols pertaining to the unit or type unit in which they commanded, there was often degree of variation.

With blades, these are probably best avoided as far as use in classification as far as nationality or such specific categories, as these are often imported and broadly used by cutlers and outfitters in many countries and regions.
It is well known that fully decorated blades for officers swords were imported from various blade making centers, most notably of course Solingen.

The term 'Caissagnard' is simply the name of one Nantes situated cutler in France among others, even in other locations, and became a neologism for blades embellished with Eastern theme and occult/magic symbolism.

With the hilts, again, the term 'custom' is hard to apply to the hilt and mounts of an officers sword, which were inherently, but not always, privately commissioned. There were some made up of similar 'pattern' or type which were simply outfitted with personalized engraved blades.
Military fashion, from the mid 18th c. with its apex in the Napoleonic period
had officers constantly in competition with uniforms and of course swords in accord.

The punzone seen is of course probably a makers mark, or the representation of one, keeping in mind the spurious use of blade making notables as common in Solingen. It is sometimes difficult to specify these as well asin many cases the original mark might have subsequent variation as the business descended to other family, or in some cases was sold to another maker.

All of these elements put together are the circumstances to be considered in identifying of weapons, and why the term conundrum is applicable in many cases. This is often a key deterrent to many reading out there as far as adding posts on many topics.

[Hanger1]

Thank you Jim!

I had seen many of your posts and I sincerely appreciate the insight on this topic.

I was sort of coming to that conclusion with so many experts in here, that I figured it would be tough to figure out. It turns out I have ancestors that fought as British regulars, Provincial army during the French and Indian war at Lake George, at the Lexington battle, and then in Vermont as Captains. I just visited there to find the graves and explore their towns.Thus my foray into this. I love these swords, almost as much as some of my prized nihonto, but certainly more of a “connection”. Nihonto has a mind boggling amount of information to learn just to get going so I have a ton of vested interest there.

I did get Neuman’s book, and I have the “Armes Blanche” on the way just to poke around. Thanks so much and I have really enjoyed your well detailed posts. I learned a lot from you.

Great site here.

Best,

Jeff

[Jim McDougall]

Jeff, that is wonderful that you have found personal connection to these historic times and through these weapons and your own ancestors. Appreciation of arms study reaches new dimensions when it becomes 'personal' and it is outstanding to have someone with such examples and connections posting here.

The Neumann book is one of the most reliable and profoundly important references on weapon of this period, and one of my most treasured times was meeting him and talking at length in person sharing ideas and observations. I have had his book since it came out in 1972, and trust me, it is well worn!

Thank you for the kind words! here we are all, always learning from each other and together. ...there is always so much more to learn! but that is the joy of it.

All the best,
Jim

[Hanger1]

That’s incredible you got to spend time with him Jim. What a work that book is. I just received Armes Blanches and it too is amazing, although alas no answers. Thanks again for your valued input here and if you ever think of who the short list is of those french sabre experts are, please feel free to PM me with those.

Based on the competition you talked about amongst officers, I am sure the person who commissioned this sword probably said” Oui, mais votre poignée n'a pas les rainures sophistiquées comme la mienne.” Ha! Mais Oui.

Until next time.

Jeff