Palembang keris?

A. G. Maisey · 13th December 2023, 06:37 PM

I strongly suspect that this had a pendok in the past, & that it was likely to have been suasa (low content gold alloy).

It was most likely without any motif.

David · 13th December 2023, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I strongly suspect that this had a pendok in the past, & that it was likely to have been suasa (low content gold alloy).

It was most likely without any motif.

Not that i doubt it, but that's pretty specific. How did you come to that suspicion?

PeterP · 13th December 2023, 10:38 PM

Thanks for the advice, I'll give the gonjo realignment a try. It's only a little bit, but just enough to prevent the blade to be inserted all the way.
When I found the kerisses on the market I couldn't believe my luck. Probably could have bargained harder but I just wanted to do a quick getaway with the loot. It's not unique to find a keris on a fleamarket in Holland, but this quality is rare, and also for this price. Comparable to about ten good takeaway pizza's for two nice palembang kerisses, a sewar and three badeks. I think I had a pretty sweet deal..
I also wondered about a possible pendok. The quality of the wood of the sheath is not on par with the rest of the keris, pretty rough timber, while the grip and the wranka are of a very nice wood. I'll be on the lookout for a pendok, but hat's probably pushing my luck. Especially with the size of the keris, never seen a palembang one as big as this one, so finding a fitting pendok will be a challenge.
About the rust, I cleaned a few blades with pineapple/lime juice and that always resulted in a very porous and rough-ish surface. This blade has such a nice polish, a shame to loose that. I think I'll try the soak and needle method first.

kai · 14th December 2023, 12:42 AM

Yup, a bargain, Peter!

The offset gonjo should be easy to fix, indeed. Be gentle and take your time.

Feel free to also post the other pieces. (Separate threads allow for more focused discussion.)

Regards,
Kai

David · 14th December 2023, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeterP

About the rust, I cleaned a few blades with pineapple/lime juice and that always resulted in a very porous and rough-ish surface. This blade has such a nice polish, a shame to loose that. I think I'll try the soak and needle method first.

Interesting. I have used pineapple juice quite a few times and have never found that the acid in it is strong enough to create any change in the surface texture of a blade, even after a week long soak.

A. G. Maisey · 14th December 2023, 08:47 PM

"Likely" is not really specific David, I am indicating a relatively high degree of probability.

But yeah, sure, its only a guess, & I'm guessing like that because firstly, the blade is a quality blade, whoever could pay for that blade would not have had much of a problem in paying for very low carat gold in the pendok.

Keris fittings were a way of storing wealth, and when cash was needed, the pendok & the mendak (in Jawa) were usually the first to go. This keris is not really all that old, everything is in good condition, I doubt that it lost its pendok because of damage.

But for a replacement pendok silver or copper would be suitable --- but polos, ie, plain, no motif.

Peter, you might find that finger pressure alone is sufficient to re-align that gonjo, and then just tighten the fit of gonjo to pesi (tang) with a nail punch.

Kai, I'm guessing on balance of probabilities & taking social mores into consideration, if I wished to extend my guesses --- which I'm not, I'd guess that the original selut might also have been suasa, and that has been replaced too. The gambar of the wrongko looks just fine to me, just a bit of furniture oil and elbow grease, but the gandar is as we would expect to see under a pendok, additionally, it appears to have adhesions of jabung, so just based on what I can see in the picture, there is no doubt at all in my mind that this keris did have a pendok in the past. In fact, if we look very carefully at the foot of the gambar, I tend to think that we can see more evidence of the previous fitting of a pendok, the curve of the top of a pendok is clear either an imprint, or just wood discolouration.

Peter, porosity in a blade exists from the time it was made & is the result of poor quality iron and insufficient washing of the iron --- "washing"> the repeated folding & welding of material prior to combining the iron with contrasting material, it is the first step in preparation of material for use in a blade. The rough surface of a keris blade after cleaning comes from the removal of the corrosion.

David · 14th December 2023, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

"Likely" is not really specific David, I am indicating a relatively high degree of probability.

But yeah, sure, its only a guess, & I'm guessing like that because firstly, the blade is a quality blade, whoever could pay for that blade would not have had much of a problem in paying for very low carat gold in the pendok.

Keris fittings were a way of storing wealth, and when cash was needed, the pendok & the mendak (in Jawa) were usually the first to go. This keris is not really all that old, everything is in good condition, I doubt that it lost its pendok because of damage.

But for a replacement pendok silver or copper would be suitable --- but polos, ie, plain, no motif.

Peter, you might find that finger pressure alone is sufficient to re-align that gonjo, and then just tighten the fit of gonjo to pesi (tang) with a nail punch.

Well actually Alan, you said that you "strongly suspect" that this had a suasa pendok.That you suspected not only that it had one, but that it was suasa and indeed without any motifs sounds pretty specific to me.

A. G. Maisey · 14th December 2023, 09:18 PM

As you wish David, maybe we just went to different schools, or maybe we're looking at a difference in societal usage.

To me, "specific" means precise, whilst "suspect" indicates an idea or an impression. If I have specific evidence of something, I'm quite prepared to put somebody into court, if I only have suspicion of something, I throw the matter back to the investigators, no matter how strongly I may suspect.

My suspicion in respect of motifs is rooted in the fact that I cannot recall ever having seen an original Palembang pendok of the type indicated by this gandar as having an embossed or engraved motif.

Jean · 15th December 2023, 09:06 AM

This is not a recently made pendok

David · 16th December 2023, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

My suspicion in respect of motifs is rooted in the fact that I cannot recall ever having seen an original Palembang pendok of the type indicated by this gandar as having an embossed or engraved motif.

Frankly i was more wonder why you felt this keris was likely to have had a suasa pendok than whether it held a motif or not. I haven't seen too many suasa pendok of Palembang keris at all, though certainly they exist. But in general i am just not used to see you be so speculative so i was questioning you in hopes of understand what fueled your suspicions enough to comment on it.

kai · 14th December 2023, 12:51 AM

Quote:

I strongly suspect that this had a pendok in the past, & that it was likely to have been suasa (low content gold alloy).

It was most likely without any motif.

I beg to differ, Alan:

Yes, this would be the Palembang standard for high-end keris.

However, the selut is from silver and of an average quality. For a suasa pendok, I would expect a selut in gold.

The scabbard wood could use some TLC - it's probably of decent quality (commonly without pendok for most keris Palembang).

Regards,
Kai

13th December 2023, 10:38 PM	#3
PeterP Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 15	Thanks for the advice, I'll give the gonjo realignment a try. It's only a little bit, but just enough to prevent the blade to be inserted all the way. When I found the kerisses on the market I couldn't believe my luck. Probably could have bargained harder but I just wanted to do a quick getaway with the loot. It's not unique to find a keris on a fleamarket in Holland, but this quality is rare, and also for this price. Comparable to about ten good takeaway pizza's for two nice palembang kerisses, a sewar and three badeks. I think I had a pretty sweet deal.. I also wondered about a possible pendok. The quality of the wood of the sheath is not on par with the rest of the keris, pretty rough timber, while the grip and the wranka are of a very nice wood. I'll be on the lookout for a pendok, but hat's probably pushing my luck. Especially with the size of the keris, never seen a palembang one as big as this one, so finding a fitting pendok will be a challenge. About the rust, I cleaned a few blades with pineapple/lime juice and that always resulted in a very porous and rough-ish surface. This blade has such a nice polish, a shame to loose that. I think I'll try the soak and needle method first. Attached Images

14th December 2023, 12:42 AM	#4
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,252	Yup, a bargain, Peter! The offset gonjo should be easy to fix, indeed. Be gentle and take your time. Feel free to also post the other pieces. (Separate threads allow for more focused discussion.) Regards, Kai Last edited by kai; 14th December 2023 at 12:54 AM.

14th December 2023, 08:47 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,857	"Likely" is not really specific David, I am indicating a relatively high degree of probability. But yeah, sure, its only a guess, & I'm guessing like that because firstly, the blade is a quality blade, whoever could pay for that blade would not have had much of a problem in paying for very low carat gold in the pendok. Keris fittings were a way of storing wealth, and when cash was needed, the pendok & the mendak (in Jawa) were usually the first to go. This keris is not really all that old, everything is in good condition, I doubt that it lost its pendok because of damage. But for a replacement pendok silver or copper would be suitable --- but polos, ie, plain, no motif. Peter, you might find that finger pressure alone is sufficient to re-align that gonjo, and then just tighten the fit of gonjo to pesi (tang) with a nail punch. Kai, I'm guessing on balance of probabilities & taking social mores into consideration, if I wished to extend my guesses --- which I'm not, I'd guess that the original selut might also have been suasa, and that has been replaced too. The gambar of the wrongko looks just fine to me, just a bit of furniture oil and elbow grease, but the gandar is as we would expect to see under a pendok, additionally, it appears to have adhesions of jabung, so just based on what I can see in the picture, there is no doubt at all in my mind that this keris did have a pendok in the past. In fact, if we look very carefully at the foot of the gambar, I tend to think that we can see more evidence of the previous fitting of a pendok, the curve of the top of a pendok is clear either an imprint, or just wood discolouration. Peter, porosity in a blade exists from the time it was made & is the result of poor quality iron and insufficient washing of the iron --- "washing"> the repeated folding & welding of material prior to combining the iron with contrasting material, it is the first step in preparation of material for use in a blade. The rough surface of a keris blade after cleaning comes from the removal of the corrosion. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 14th December 2023 at 09:09 PM.

15th December 2023, 09:06 AM	#9
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	This is not a recently made pendok Attached Images

13th December 2023, 06:37 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,857	I strongly suspect that this had a pendok in the past, & that it was likely to have been suasa (low content gold alloy). It was most likely without any motif.

14th December 2023, 09:18 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,857	As you wish David, maybe we just went to different schools, or maybe we're looking at a difference in societal usage. To me, "specific" means precise, whilst "suspect" indicates an idea or an impression. If I have specific evidence of something, I'm quite prepared to put somebody into court, if I only have suspicion of something, I throw the matter back to the investigators, no matter how strongly I may suspect. My suspicion in respect of motifs is rooted in the fact that I cannot recall ever having seen an original Palembang pendok of the type indicated by this gandar as having an embossed or engraved motif.