Palembang keris?

kai · 13th December 2023, 01:32 AM

Hello Peter,

Thanks for posting - one of the moderators will shove this thread over to the keris forum, no worries.

Yes, I believe this a Palembang blade - nice one! The fittings could also originate from Lampung or the hinterlands.

I don't see the problem with the gonjo. Is it bent sideways?

Regarding rust removal, I'd first try local treatment. For superficial rust, repeated soaking with weapon oil and rubbing may be sufficient (gentle work with very fine steel wool is usually safe). Some patches visible on this blade may likely be more stubborn - more invasive treatment will likely remove the stain locally which may be feasible fix cosmetically if needed.

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 13th December 2023, 01:54 AM

A classic piece, very nice indeed.

It has probably been cleaned and stained a number of times, & if it were mine I would clean & stain it again now, but if you do not have the necessary experience and you do not have access to lab. quality arsenic, it probably best to give it repeated oil soaks and using magnification & a sharp pick, mechanically remove as much rust as possible. This oil & pick method works well, I cleaned a couple of Bali keris in this way around 50 years ago, & they are still excellent today. Took me a long time.

The gonjo is a pressure fit, it could be held in place with a tiny wedge driven down between tang and gonjo, or it could be held in place by tightening with a punch around the tang hole, either way it is a mechanical fit.

Using alloy jaw liners in a vice to hold the blade --- or just folded news paper, the tang can be tapped back into position. I use a jeweler's hammer for this, or you can use a punch & and a larger hammer. Sometimes the gonjo might rise up a bit, but again, it can be tapped back into position. This gonjo out of a alignment thing is pretty common, it can be considered to be normal maintenance. Best to use a punch & hammer to tighten the fit again when the gonjo is back in place. When you have the blade in the vice it is best to use your left hand over the top of the gonjo tail & gripping the blade, to hold it firmly and get feedback on what is happening.

Stylistically these Palembang keris are copies of Central Javanese keris, there were strong political ties between the Central Javanese kingdoms & the South Sumatera kingdoms.

David · 13th December 2023, 02:21 PM

Nice flea market find! That usually means you got a good deal too.

Yes, as Alan stated, this is classic Palembang and a pretty nice example. I would follow Alan's advice to fix the problems. It would be nice to restain this one if you have the skills and i think it would look very nice in full stain.
From the look of the tarnish on the selut i suspect it might actually be silver. If it were mine i would hit it with a jeweler's sliver polishing cloth and clean it up. Silver fittings are intended to shine.

A. G. Maisey · 13th December 2023, 06:37 PM

I strongly suspect that this had a pendok in the past, & that it was likely to have been suasa (low content gold alloy).

It was most likely without any motif.

David · 13th December 2023, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I strongly suspect that this had a pendok in the past, & that it was likely to have been suasa (low content gold alloy).

It was most likely without any motif.

Not that i doubt it, but that's pretty specific. How did you come to that suspicion?

PeterP · 13th December 2023, 10:38 PM

Thanks for the advice, I'll give the gonjo realignment a try. It's only a little bit, but just enough to prevent the blade to be inserted all the way.
When I found the kerisses on the market I couldn't believe my luck. Probably could have bargained harder but I just wanted to do a quick getaway with the loot. It's not unique to find a keris on a fleamarket in Holland, but this quality is rare, and also for this price. Comparable to about ten good takeaway pizza's for two nice palembang kerisses, a sewar and three badeks. I think I had a pretty sweet deal..
I also wondered about a possible pendok. The quality of the wood of the sheath is not on par with the rest of the keris, pretty rough timber, while the grip and the wranka are of a very nice wood. I'll be on the lookout for a pendok, but hat's probably pushing my luck. Especially with the size of the keris, never seen a palembang one as big as this one, so finding a fitting pendok will be a challenge.
About the rust, I cleaned a few blades with pineapple/lime juice and that always resulted in a very porous and rough-ish surface. This blade has such a nice polish, a shame to loose that. I think I'll try the soak and needle method first.

kai · 14th December 2023, 12:42 AM

Yup, a bargain, Peter!

The offset gonjo should be easy to fix, indeed. Be gentle and take your time.

Feel free to also post the other pieces. (Separate threads allow for more focused discussion.)

Regards,
Kai

David · 14th December 2023, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeterP

About the rust, I cleaned a few blades with pineapple/lime juice and that always resulted in a very porous and rough-ish surface. This blade has such a nice polish, a shame to loose that. I think I'll try the soak and needle method first.

Interesting. I have used pineapple juice quite a few times and have never found that the acid in it is strong enough to create any change in the surface texture of a blade, even after a week long soak.

A. G. Maisey · 14th December 2023, 08:47 PM

"Likely" is not really specific David, I am indicating a relatively high degree of probability.

But yeah, sure, its only a guess, & I'm guessing like that because firstly, the blade is a quality blade, whoever could pay for that blade would not have had much of a problem in paying for very low carat gold in the pendok.

Keris fittings were a way of storing wealth, and when cash was needed, the pendok & the mendak (in Jawa) were usually the first to go. This keris is not really all that old, everything is in good condition, I doubt that it lost its pendok because of damage.

But for a replacement pendok silver or copper would be suitable --- but polos, ie, plain, no motif.

Peter, you might find that finger pressure alone is sufficient to re-align that gonjo, and then just tighten the fit of gonjo to pesi (tang) with a nail punch.

Kai, I'm guessing on balance of probabilities & taking social mores into consideration, if I wished to extend my guesses --- which I'm not, I'd guess that the original selut might also have been suasa, and that has been replaced too. The gambar of the wrongko looks just fine to me, just a bit of furniture oil and elbow grease, but the gandar is as we would expect to see under a pendok, additionally, it appears to have adhesions of jabung, so just based on what I can see in the picture, there is no doubt at all in my mind that this keris did have a pendok in the past. In fact, if we look very carefully at the foot of the gambar, I tend to think that we can see more evidence of the previous fitting of a pendok, the curve of the top of a pendok is clear either an imprint, or just wood discolouration.

Peter, porosity in a blade exists from the time it was made & is the result of poor quality iron and insufficient washing of the iron --- "washing"> the repeated folding & welding of material prior to combining the iron with contrasting material, it is the first step in preparation of material for use in a blade. The rough surface of a keris blade after cleaning comes from the removal of the corrosion.

kai · 14th December 2023, 12:51 AM

Quote:

I strongly suspect that this had a pendok in the past, & that it was likely to have been suasa (low content gold alloy).

It was most likely without any motif.

I beg to differ, Alan:

Yes, this would be the Palembang standard for high-end keris.

However, the selut is from silver and of an average quality. For a suasa pendok, I would expect a selut in gold.

The scabbard wood could use some TLC - it's probably of decent quality (commonly without pendok for most keris Palembang).

Regards,
Kai

13th December 2023, 10:38 PM	#6
PeterP Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 15	Thanks for the advice, I'll give the gonjo realignment a try. It's only a little bit, but just enough to prevent the blade to be inserted all the way. When I found the kerisses on the market I couldn't believe my luck. Probably could have bargained harder but I just wanted to do a quick getaway with the loot. It's not unique to find a keris on a fleamarket in Holland, but this quality is rare, and also for this price. Comparable to about ten good takeaway pizza's for two nice palembang kerisses, a sewar and three badeks. I think I had a pretty sweet deal.. I also wondered about a possible pendok. The quality of the wood of the sheath is not on par with the rest of the keris, pretty rough timber, while the grip and the wranka are of a very nice wood. I'll be on the lookout for a pendok, but hat's probably pushing my luck. Especially with the size of the keris, never seen a palembang one as big as this one, so finding a fitting pendok will be a challenge. About the rust, I cleaned a few blades with pineapple/lime juice and that always resulted in a very porous and rough-ish surface. This blade has such a nice polish, a shame to loose that. I think I'll try the soak and needle method first. Attached Images

14th December 2023, 12:42 AM	#7
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,252	Yup, a bargain, Peter! The offset gonjo should be easy to fix, indeed. Be gentle and take your time. Feel free to also post the other pieces. (Separate threads allow for more focused discussion.) Regards, Kai Last edited by kai; 14th December 2023 at 12:54 AM.

14th December 2023, 08:47 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,856	"Likely" is not really specific David, I am indicating a relatively high degree of probability. But yeah, sure, its only a guess, & I'm guessing like that because firstly, the blade is a quality blade, whoever could pay for that blade would not have had much of a problem in paying for very low carat gold in the pendok. Keris fittings were a way of storing wealth, and when cash was needed, the pendok & the mendak (in Jawa) were usually the first to go. This keris is not really all that old, everything is in good condition, I doubt that it lost its pendok because of damage. But for a replacement pendok silver or copper would be suitable --- but polos, ie, plain, no motif. Peter, you might find that finger pressure alone is sufficient to re-align that gonjo, and then just tighten the fit of gonjo to pesi (tang) with a nail punch. Kai, I'm guessing on balance of probabilities & taking social mores into consideration, if I wished to extend my guesses --- which I'm not, I'd guess that the original selut might also have been suasa, and that has been replaced too. The gambar of the wrongko looks just fine to me, just a bit of furniture oil and elbow grease, but the gandar is as we would expect to see under a pendok, additionally, it appears to have adhesions of jabung, so just based on what I can see in the picture, there is no doubt at all in my mind that this keris did have a pendok in the past. In fact, if we look very carefully at the foot of the gambar, I tend to think that we can see more evidence of the previous fitting of a pendok, the curve of the top of a pendok is clear either an imprint, or just wood discolouration. Peter, porosity in a blade exists from the time it was made & is the result of poor quality iron and insufficient washing of the iron --- "washing"> the repeated folding & welding of material prior to combining the iron with contrasting material, it is the first step in preparation of material for use in a blade. The rough surface of a keris blade after cleaning comes from the removal of the corrosion. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 14th December 2023 at 09:09 PM.

13th December 2023, 01:32 AM	#1
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,252	Hello Peter, Thanks for posting - one of the moderators will shove this thread over to the keris forum, no worries. Yes, I believe this a Palembang blade - nice one! The fittings could also originate from Lampung or the hinterlands. I don't see the problem with the gonjo. Is it bent sideways? Regarding rust removal, I'd first try local treatment. For superficial rust, repeated soaking with weapon oil and rubbing may be sufficient (gentle work with very fine steel wool is usually safe). Some patches visible on this blade may likely be more stubborn - more invasive treatment will likely remove the stain locally which may be feasible fix cosmetically if needed. Regards, Kai

13th December 2023, 01:54 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,856	A classic piece, very nice indeed. It has probably been cleaned and stained a number of times, & if it were mine I would clean & stain it again now, but if you do not have the necessary experience and you do not have access to lab. quality arsenic, it probably best to give it repeated oil soaks and using magnification & a sharp pick, mechanically remove as much rust as possible. This oil & pick method works well, I cleaned a couple of Bali keris in this way around 50 years ago, & they are still excellent today. Took me a long time. The gonjo is a pressure fit, it could be held in place with a tiny wedge driven down between tang and gonjo, or it could be held in place by tightening with a punch around the tang hole, either way it is a mechanical fit. Using alloy jaw liners in a vice to hold the blade --- or just folded news paper, the tang can be tapped back into position. I use a jeweler's hammer for this, or you can use a punch & and a larger hammer. Sometimes the gonjo might rise up a bit, but again, it can be tapped back into position. This gonjo out of a alignment thing is pretty common, it can be considered to be normal maintenance. Best to use a punch & hammer to tighten the fit again when the gonjo is back in place. When you have the blade in the vice it is best to use your left hand over the top of the gonjo tail & gripping the blade, to hold it firmly and get feedback on what is happening. Stylistically these Palembang keris are copies of Central Javanese keris, there were strong political ties between the Central Javanese kingdoms & the South Sumatera kingdoms.

13th December 2023, 02:21 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,100	Nice flea market find! That usually means you got a good deal too. Yes, as Alan stated, this is classic Palembang and a pretty nice example. I would follow Alan's advice to fix the problems. It would be nice to restain this one if you have the skills and i think it would look very nice in full stain. From the look of the tarnish on the selut i suspect it might actually be silver. If it were mine i would hit it with a jeweler's sliver polishing cloth and clean it up. Silver fittings are intended to shine.

13th December 2023, 06:37 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,856	I strongly suspect that this had a pendok in the past, & that it was likely to have been suasa (low content gold alloy). It was most likely without any motif.