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#1 |
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Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Black Forest, Germany
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some info to cabbalistic signs on blades:
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#2 |
Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
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Akanthus, great stuff on von Trenck! He was quite a bad boy, and his troops became pretty terrible with their depredations as they went a bit overboard with 'foraging'. The pandour units were disbanded, and von Trenck ended up imprisoned and died in 1749.
To add to this macabre story, his mummified remains remain on view in a monastery in Brno. The frightening reputation of these notorious forces became both feared and and at the same time admired by other armies who favored their light fast moving tactics and skills in guerilla warfare and skirmishing, and added similar units as auxiliaries to their standing armies later in the 18th c. The hubris charged words VIVAT PANDUR became popular on many sword and other blades, much in the same manner as Bowie knives inscribed with 'Remember the Alamo'. In R.D.C. Evans book "The Plug Bayonet", there are a number of plug bayonets with this inscription. |
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#3 |
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[QUOTE=Jim McDougall;286567]Akanthus, great stuff on von Trenck! He was quite a bad boy, and his troops became pretty terrible with their depredations as they went a bit overboard with 'foraging'.
Hallo Jim,yes it's very interesting.... Also remarkable his cousin ,Friedrich Freiherr von der Trenck,the prussian Trenck.Serving in Prussia and Austria,escaping from several arrests and in the end ending up under the Guillotine of the French Revolution in Paris 1794.What a life....but it lead's too far here... ![]() |
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#4 |
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Udo, thank you for adding those most important pages from Buigne & Lhoste!
I wanted to add the sword I posted a couple of years ago, and that you identified the monogram on the blade as that of Charles Theodor (Karl Theodor),Charles IV, Elector of the Palitina as Duke of Juelichberg from 1742; then in 1777 as Charles Theodor II , Elector of Bavaria. It seems more likely that this sword, which has a yataghan style blade, as well as that style hilt is from his later reign as Elector of Bavaria. The reason is that there is a partial poincon on the quillon with BOU. I would speculate (tenuously) that to be a partial of the lettered stamp used by Boutet (Versailles) whose shops might have created this officers sword in the manner of the 'oriental' conventions of the Pandours in the time of von Trenck (pictured in first attachment) in 1740s. As the French had of course an interest in the War of Bavarian Succession (1778-1779) possibly this sword with longer, 'cavalry' length blade, and made in 'hunting sword' fashion might have been made for an officer in the service of Charles Theodor, and by the Versailles manufactory directed by Boutet. While not having the types of blade decoration we are discussing, it is of the 'hunting sword' genre, and possibly French origin using 'oriental' fashion as discussed. I was most grateful for your identification of this monogram, and would welcome your thoughts on my speculations on this sword. |
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#5 |
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Join Date: Jun 2022
Location: San Diego
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images of a sword in my collection. I have often wondered about the significance of these...
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#6 |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
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Location: Portugal
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#7 |
Arms Historian
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Swordlover, there you have the exact scenario discussed, clearly this is of the French blade 'fourbusiers' (cutlers) and the various magic and military panoply based themes that have become collectively termed in many references as 'Caissagnard'. As earlier noted, he was one of such cutlers who was situated in Nantes, which seems to have been a hotbed of these type of blade motif's.
In a previous discussion we have discussed the esoteric 'rose' marking on the spine of blades at the forte which seems to be agreed to be a Solingen affectation on blades with similar decorative motif. As with many of these themes, it appears that much of the influence derived from Eastern Europe and the 'hussar' phenomenon which captivated most of Europe in the mid to late 18thc. Along with the 'oriental' mystique of the light cavalry 'hussars' which of course included the 'pandour' units, was the attraction to oriental fashion and weapons (mostly Ottoman and the yatahans for example). Along with this came the mysterious 'magic' sigils and devices which seem to have been contrived from all manner of unusual sources. Among these were characters of the alphabets of Glagolitic; Bosnian Cyrillic; Caballistic symbols; and numbers of others incuding alchemical and astrologic symbols, all variously assembled in coded interpretations. These 'magic' symbols were seen to have talismanic properties (as with amulets from Passau known as Passau art, the famed running wolf one of them). Many of these devices are almost wildly contrived, and seen as invocations to summon angels ( there was even an alphabet called Enochian) in keeping with remarkably superstitious beliefs of these times. In looking at this, it is tempting to see the 'rose' symbols on the Solingen blades as part of this 'magical' motif phenomenon of mid to late 18th into early 19th c. The Prince of Wales in late 1790s ordered a number of 'oriental' style blades (with yelman point) and talismanic motif for sabers for his officers from Solingen. The cosmological basis in much of this symbolism derive from the sun and moon (which are depicted in an almost 'Tarot' style artistry) which are symbols of the Szekely, the ethnic sub group of Hungary from ancient times. The Hungarian nation of course has notable influence on blade decoration of these kinds in these times. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 3rd December 2023 at 06:54 PM. |
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#8 |
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In keeping with the 'Pandour' aspect of the style of markings on these blades, this example shows the type of saber, termed Hungarian (but of course Austro-Hungarian) used by the officers of these auxiliary forces 1740s.
In discussions several years ago, it was noted that the example in Wagner (1967, plate 35, produced by Mairschoffer I of Passau, anno 1747. Another possibility Melchior Steiner of Pottenstein in Austria anno 1749. Here it is worthy of note that the actual 'pandour' units were effectively disbanded after the arrest of von Trenck prior to those dates. However this does not mean they immediately stood down. The 1747 date seems coincidentally associated with the hubris laden biography of the notorious Baron von Trenck (it is believed he was the author). Last edited by Jim McDougall; 4th December 2023 at 06:59 AM. |
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#9 | |
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The "Manufacture de Versailles" was created as part of the efforts of the "Comité de salut public" and worked closely with Paris from the start. The "Manufacture Nationale de Carabines" exclusively manufactured rifles and pistols for the French troops,no swords. It emerged from a repair workshop, which was expanded following the dissolution of the "Manufacture de Paris" to employ unemployed staff in 1793. However, the signatures and stamps used by Boutet are well documented today, but a stamp "BOU" was not used. However, it is conceivable that this "BOU" goes back to Nicolas Noel Boutet's father, who was called Noel Boutet. He also worked as "arquebusier des cheveaux légers du Roy" in Versailles between 1760 and 1775. Last edited by fernando; 5th December 2023 at 10:42 AM. Reason: Members are recommended to reduce the size of each quotation to the part of the texts they wish to emphasize ! |
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#10 |
Arms Historian
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Udo, THANK YOU! so much.
In the many years I have had this sword, many naysayers have discounted this mark as being from BOUTET, citing his proclivity to firearms and weapons of high end etc. This thorough referencing offers a reasonable solution. at last! |
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