European hunting sword for comments

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Ian

Moved as requested

And, if ASomer doesn't mind, we will change the thread title to a more appropriate one, so that members are not misguided,.. so to say !

[fernando]

ASomer, you have a private message (PM).

[corrado26]

some info to cabbalistic signs on blades:

[Jim McDougall]

Akanthus, great stuff on von Trenck! He was quite a bad boy, and his troops became pretty terrible with their depredations as they went a bit overboard with 'foraging'. The pandour units were disbanded, and von Trenck ended up imprisoned and died in 1749.
To add to this macabre story, his mummified remains remain on view in a monastery in Brno.

The frightening reputation of these notorious forces became both feared and and at the same time admired by other armies who favored their light fast moving tactics and skills in guerilla warfare and skirmishing, and added similar units as auxiliaries to their standing armies later in the 18th c.

The hubris charged words VIVAT PANDUR became popular on many sword and other blades, much in the same manner as Bowie knives inscribed with 'Remember the Alamo'. In R.D.C. Evans book "The Plug Bayonet", there are a number of plug bayonets with this inscription.

[Akanthus]

[QUOTE=Jim McDougall;286567]Akanthus, great stuff on von Trenck! He was quite a bad boy, and his troops became pretty terrible with their depredations as they went a bit overboard with 'foraging'.

Hallo Jim,yes it's very interesting....
Also remarkable his cousin ,Friedrich Freiherr von der Trenck,the prussian Trenck.Serving in Prussia and Austria,escaping from several arrests and in the end ending up under the Guillotine of the French Revolution in Paris 1794.What a life....but it lead's too far here...

[Jim McDougall]

Udo, thank you for adding those most important pages from Buigne & Lhoste!

I wanted to add the sword I posted a couple of years ago, and that you identified the monogram on the blade as that of Charles Theodor (Karl Theodor),Charles IV, Elector of the Palitina as Duke of Juelichberg from 1742; then in 1777 as Charles Theodor II , Elector of Bavaria.

It seems more likely that this sword, which has a yataghan style blade, as well as that style hilt is from his later reign as Elector of Bavaria. The reason is that there is a partial poincon on the quillon with BOU. I would speculate (tenuously) that to be a partial of the lettered stamp used by Boutet (Versailles) whose shops might have created this officers sword in the manner of the 'oriental' conventions of the Pandours in the time of von Trenck (pictured in first attachment) in 1740s.

As the French had of course an interest in the War of Bavarian Succession (1778-1779) possibly this sword with longer, 'cavalry' length blade, and made in 'hunting sword' fashion might have been made for an officer in the service of Charles Theodor, and by the Versailles manufactory directed by Boutet.

While not having the types of blade decoration we are discussing, it is of the 'hunting sword' genre, and possibly French origin using 'oriental' fashion as discussed.

I was most grateful for your identification of this monogram, and would welcome your thoughts on my speculations on this sword.

[SwordLover79]

images of a sword in my collection. I have often wondered about the significance of these...

[fernando]

Originally Posted by SwordLover79

images of a sword in my collection. I have often wondered about the significance of these...

Can you please show us the whole sword ?

[corrado26]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I wanted to add the sword I posted a couple of years ago, and that you identified the monogram on the blade as that of Charles Theodor (Karl Theodor),Charles IV, Elector of the Palitina as Duke of Juelichberg from 1742; then in 1777 as Charles Theodor II , Elector of Bavaria.

It seems more likely that this sword, which has a yataghan style blade, as well as that style hilt is from his later reign as Elector of Bavaria. The reason is that there is a partial poincon on the quillon with BOU. I would speculate (tenuously) that to be a partial of the lettered stamp used by Boutet (Versailles) whose shops might have created this officers sword in the manner of the 'oriental' conventions of the Pandours in the time of von Trenck (pictured in first attachment) in 1740s.

As the French had of course an interest in the War of Bavarian Succession (1778-1779) possibly this sword with longer, 'cavalry' length blade, and made in 'hunting sword' fashion might have been made for an officer in the service of Charles Theodor, and by the Versailles manufactory directed by Boutet.

Karl Theodor ruled in Bavaria until his death in 1799. It would therefore be quite possible that the stamp "BOU" is part of a signature struck by BOUTET, since he had worked in the Versailles factory since 1793.
The "Manufacture de Versailles" was created as part of the efforts of the "Comité de salut public" and worked closely with Paris from the start. The "Manufacture Nationale de Carabines" exclusively manufactured rifles and pistols for the French troops,no swords. It emerged from a repair workshop, which was expanded following the dissolution of the "Manufacture de Paris" to employ unemployed staff in 1793. However, the signatures and stamps used by Boutet are well documented today, but a stamp "BOU" was not used. However, it is conceivable that this "BOU" goes back to Nicolas Noel Boutet's father, who was called Noel Boutet. He also worked as "arquebusier des cheveaux légers du Roy" in Versailles between 1760 and 1775.

[Jim McDougall]

Udo, THANK YOU! so much.
In the many years I have had this sword, many naysayers have discounted this mark as being from BOUTET, citing his proclivity to firearms and weapons of high end etc. This thorough referencing offers a reasonable solution. at last!