European hunting sword for comments

Jim McDougall · 30th November 2023, 05:04 PM

May I request that this thread move to European?

As Norman has well noted, this is a European sword, possibly a hunting hanger as used by jagers, which were specially formed light infantry units. These units were essentially for forward action, skirmishing and activity outside the movement of larger formations. As foragers (the term jager in German =hunter) they were also responsible for food supply.

In that they were often in battle with or proximity of Ottoman forces, the affinity for oriental fashions,styles and of course weaponry was prevalent.
These circumstances were of course well known with the pandour units of Baron von Trenck in the service of Maria Theresa.

The 18th century fascination with the mysteries of the occult, magic and oriental esoterica led to the use of these kinds of decoration and motif on sword blades, and as seen here, often the elements of the sword itself. This was known in the 18th c. as 'chinoserie' (=in the Chinese manner) referring to of course 'oriental', which actually collectively referred to China, Japan, India and even Ottoman (Middle East as well).

Fantastic piece of esoteric weaponry!

Ian · 1st December 2023, 05:39 AM

Moved as requested

Jim McDougall · 1st December 2023, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Moved as requested

Thank you Ian

fernando · 2nd December 2023, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Moved as requested

And, if ASomer doesn't mind, we will change the thread title to a more appropriate one, so that members are not misguided,.. so to say !

fernando · 2nd December 2023, 10:43 AM

ASomer, you have a private message (PM).

corrado26 · 2nd December 2023, 04:05 PM

some info to cabbalistic signs on blades:

Jim McDougall · 2nd December 2023, 11:19 PM

Akanthus, great stuff on von Trenck! He was quite a bad boy, and his troops became pretty terrible with their depredations as they went a bit overboard with 'foraging'. The pandour units were disbanded, and von Trenck ended up imprisoned and died in 1749.
To add to this macabre story, his mummified remains remain on view in a monastery in Brno.

The frightening reputation of these notorious forces became both feared and and at the same time admired by other armies who favored their light fast moving tactics and skills in guerilla warfare and skirmishing, and added similar units as auxiliaries to their standing armies later in the 18th c.

The hubris charged words VIVAT PANDUR became popular on many sword and other blades, much in the same manner as Bowie knives inscribed with 'Remember the Alamo'. In R.D.C. Evans book "The Plug Bayonet", there are a number of plug bayonets with this inscription.

Akanthus · 3rd December 2023, 11:48 AM

[QUOTE=Jim McDougall;286567]Akanthus, great stuff on von Trenck! He was quite a bad boy, and his troops became pretty terrible with their depredations as they went a bit overboard with 'foraging'.

Hallo Jim,yes it's very interesting....
Also remarkable his cousin ,Friedrich Freiherr von der Trenck,the prussian Trenck.Serving in Prussia and Austria,escaping from several arrests and in the end ending up under the Guillotine of the French Revolution in Paris 1794.What a life....but it lead's too far here...

Jim McDougall · 3rd December 2023, 12:04 PM

Udo, thank you for adding those most important pages from Buigne & Lhoste!

I wanted to add the sword I posted a couple of years ago, and that you identified the monogram on the blade as that of Charles Theodor (Karl Theodor),Charles IV, Elector of the Palitina as Duke of Juelichberg from 1742; then in 1777 as Charles Theodor II , Elector of Bavaria.

It seems more likely that this sword, which has a yataghan style blade, as well as that style hilt is from his later reign as Elector of Bavaria. The reason is that there is a partial poincon on the quillon with BOU. I would speculate (tenuously) that to be a partial of the lettered stamp used by Boutet (Versailles) whose shops might have created this officers sword in the manner of the 'oriental' conventions of the Pandours in the time of von Trenck (pictured in first attachment) in 1740s.

As the French had of course an interest in the War of Bavarian Succession (1778-1779) possibly this sword with longer, 'cavalry' length blade, and made in 'hunting sword' fashion might have been made for an officer in the service of Charles Theodor, and by the Versailles manufactory directed by Boutet.

While not having the types of blade decoration we are discussing, it is of the 'hunting sword' genre, and possibly French origin using 'oriental' fashion as discussed.

I was most grateful for your identification of this monogram, and would welcome your thoughts on my speculations on this sword.

1st December 2023, 05:39 AM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,167	And so ... over to the European Armoury forum Moved as requested

2nd December 2023, 04:05 PM	#6
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,198	some info to cabbalistic signs on blades: Attached Images

3rd December 2023, 12:04 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,896	Udo, thank you for adding those most important pages from Buigne & Lhoste! I wanted to add the sword I posted a couple of years ago, and that you identified the monogram on the blade as that of Charles Theodor (Karl Theodor),Charles IV, Elector of the Palitina as Duke of Juelichberg from 1742; then in 1777 as Charles Theodor II , Elector of Bavaria. It seems more likely that this sword, which has a yataghan style blade, as well as that style hilt is from his later reign as Elector of Bavaria. The reason is that there is a partial poincon on the quillon with BOU. I would speculate (tenuously) that to be a partial of the lettered stamp used by Boutet (Versailles) whose shops might have created this officers sword in the manner of the 'oriental' conventions of the Pandours in the time of von Trenck (pictured in first attachment) in 1740s. As the French had of course an interest in the War of Bavarian Succession (1778-1779) possibly this sword with longer, 'cavalry' length blade, and made in 'hunting sword' fashion might have been made for an officer in the service of Charles Theodor, and by the Versailles manufactory directed by Boutet. While not having the types of blade decoration we are discussing, it is of the 'hunting sword' genre, and possibly French origin using 'oriental' fashion as discussed. I was most grateful for your identification of this monogram, and would welcome your thoughts on my speculations on this sword. Attached Images

30th November 2023, 05:04 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,896	May I request that this thread move to European? As Norman has well noted, this is a European sword, possibly a hunting hanger as used by jagers, which were specially formed light infantry units. These units were essentially for forward action, skirmishing and activity outside the movement of larger formations. As foragers (the term jager in German =hunter) they were also responsible for food supply. In that they were often in battle with or proximity of Ottoman forces, the affinity for oriental fashions,styles and of course weaponry was prevalent. These circumstances were of course well known with the pandour units of Baron von Trenck in the service of Maria Theresa. The 18th century fascination with the mysteries of the occult, magic and oriental esoterica led to the use of these kinds of decoration and motif on sword blades, and as seen here, often the elements of the sword itself. This was known in the 18th c. as 'chinoserie' (=in the Chinese manner) referring to of course 'oriental', which actually collectively referred to China, Japan, India and even Ottoman (Middle East as well). Fantastic piece of esoteric weaponry!

2nd December 2023, 10:43 AM	#5
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	ASomer, you have a private message (PM).

2nd December 2023, 11:19 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,896	Akanthus, great stuff on von Trenck! He was quite a bad boy, and his troops became pretty terrible with their depredations as they went a bit overboard with 'foraging'. The pandour units were disbanded, and von Trenck ended up imprisoned and died in 1749. To add to this macabre story, his mummified remains remain on view in a monastery in Brno. The frightening reputation of these notorious forces became both feared and and at the same time admired by other armies who favored their light fast moving tactics and skills in guerilla warfare and skirmishing, and added similar units as auxiliaries to their standing armies later in the 18th c. The hubris charged words VIVAT PANDUR became popular on many sword and other blades, much in the same manner as Bowie knives inscribed with 'Remember the Alamo'. In R.D.C. Evans book "The Plug Bayonet", there are a number of plug bayonets with this inscription.

3rd December 2023, 11:48 AM	#8
Akanthus Member Join Date: Mar 2023 Posts: 76	[QUOTE=Jim McDougall;286567]Akanthus, great stuff on von Trenck! He was quite a bad boy, and his troops became pretty terrible with their depredations as they went a bit overboard with 'foraging'. Hallo Jim,yes it's very interesting.... Also remarkable his cousin ,Friedrich Freiherr von der Trenck,the prussian Trenck.Serving in Prussia and Austria,escaping from several arrests and in the end ending up under the Guillotine of the French Revolution in Paris 1794.What a life....but it lead's too far here...