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#1 |
Arms Historian
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Location: Route 66
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Radboud, again, it is amazing to have this discussion on this topic, and particularly noting the part played by Solingen in actual blade decoration.
I am glad you joined us Bryce! now both 'top guns' in this field of collecting are here! and gentlemen, quite honestly I defer to your well founded expertise. The outstanding examples both of you have prolifically shared here over the years reflect the remarkable knowledge and experience you have gained in collecting and studying them, and I very much appreciate your openly sharing and discussing it here. Radboud, your rebuttal is well thought out and worded, and your well parsed note on my comment on 'exception' referring to the Solingen production characteristics was well placed. The word exception did not well carry what I meant. I had been under the impression that while Solingen was of course primarily a blade making center, the business of decorating blades was left to the cutlers ,case in point here Great Britain, who bought the blades for mounting. Naturally as officers bought their swords typically commissioned by outfitters who were often also jewelers, workers in precious metals and privately commissioned. Naturally Solingen had artisans who also decorated blades, but I had thought that commissioning a sword for an officer would likely be more personally achieved with a local outfitter he was familiar with. It makes sense that already decorated blades with more and less 'generic' themes would be available from Solingen and now I recall that in the case of the blades on the initial run of the unique sabers for the officers of the 10th Prince of Wales Hussars were Solingen decorated. As I recall, the Prince, who was like his father, keen on military, particularly fashion oriented, matters, and had ordered a number of blades for custom made sabers earlier. These were blades of 'exotic' Persian type blades (with yelman) and decorated with the popular themes well known in Europe. In 1809 or 1810 he commissioned Prosser to assemble sabers for his officers will specially designed hilt.....I believe there were 27 in all. I have had one of these (in notably horrible condition) acquired over 40 years ago, in the time I was collecting British cavalry swords, but the blued blade decoration is long gone. This does of course support the fact that Solingen did indeed provide fully decorated blades, as you guys assert. As you note Radboud, we cannot know the degree or percentage of such work. Your point that there were noted intermediaries such as S&K, Runkel et al who acquired blades from the swordsmiths and sold them to cutlers, mostly in Great Britain. Naturally, many such blades might be sold to same in other countries. The 'variation', another term I used, would derive from the fact that cutlers often acquired elements for hilt assembly from other vendors. Your note on the time frame for the ubiquitous ANDREA FERARA, SAHAGUM et al blades is of course correct, and I had neglected to state that the Solingen use of these had pretty much waned by mid 18th century, if not earlier. Thank you again guys, it is really good to get back in the saddle again on the British swords, its been about a 40 year 'minute' aside from a occasional foray back into the field, and amazing to see how much has been discovered and well learned, especially by both of you, and by Richard Dellar, whose excellent reference "The British Cavalry Sword: Some New Perspectives" truly rekindled old interests. Back to the topic, it would seem that the 'rose' was a somewhat varied floral style device placed on the blade spine near the forte, sometimes somewhat en suite with the decorated panels of the blade at the forte, and seemingly a Solingen convention in the period c. 1780s-1810-20. It will be interesting to discover the source of this distinct device and if it was unique only to Solingen, or if its presence elsewhere was the result of the ubiquitous use of decorated blades from Solingen by other countries and states. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 22nd November 2023 at 06:16 PM. |
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#2 | ||||
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#3 |
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Hello Folks... well outside my field but an excellent -- thrilling even! -- thread.
Something came to mind while absorbing the cut and thrust of this discussion and it is this: during my early forays into the world of blades and swords I learned that the majority of blades produced in Solingen were sent to Cologne to be given appropriate markings to suit the prevailing market. Is it possible that a lot of the markings you are discussing could have been applied in Köln before being sold onwards? Last edited by urbanspaceman; 23rd November 2023 at 10:02 PM. Reason: typo |
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#4 |
Arms Historian
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Keith, in trying to locate the reference to Koln (Cologne), I recall reading this passim, but it seems this situation was in earlier years of the Solingen blade producing phenomenon. What was said was that while the blades were of course made in Solingen, they were sent to Koln for mounting, and that for some time German swords from these regions were termed 'Koln swords'.
This kind of circumstance happens in a number of cases such as with the swords of North Italy from various cities were collectively termed 'Genoan' as that was the port of export. In the period in discussion which is centered in later years of 18thc. the focus has been on fully decorated blades being exported into England. What I just found is from "The American Eagle Pommel Sword:The Early Years 1794-1830", Andrew Mowbray, 1988, p.55; "...almost all of the earliest eagle pommeled swords cutlered in London used blades imported from Solingen by any one of a number of local brokers specializing in the German blade trade". It is noted that Runkel was the most important, however there were a number of others with family in Solingen furnishing them with blades as well. Further noted, "...commodity quality Solingen blades were at this time, almost ALWAYS of simple blue and gilt decoration, sprigs amidst hastily outlined crude panoplies of arms. Because of their non nationalistic designs, this style of blade could be sold widely throughout Europe". While the references refer to the swords being exported from England to America by London cutlers, the important notes are to the fact that Solingen was supplying fully decorated blades to England and other nations in the period 1790s-1815. The references to these blades apply of course to officers swords, and it is noted that the examples with decorated blades were likely from Solingen, and with plain blades were most probably from Birmingham. I would note that the blades by Thomas Gill, who initiated the so called 'sword scandal' in 1790s was a Birmingham maker, as was James Wooley who both produced officers sabers without the blued and gilt decoration typically, and used their own blades, as far as I have known. The 'scandal' was the claim that English blades by Gill, Wooley,et al were not only as good but better than the imported German blades. Runkel furnished German blades for the testing. It is unclear whether artisans decorating the Solingen blades were there or in nearby Koln, but possibly that cutler industry indeed remained as before for fully decorated blades. For listings of sword makers and cutlers in England 19th c. The source by Mowbray (op. cit.) has two pages of names but possibly incomplete as the focus was on exports to America. Others: "Swords for Sea Service", (2 vol.) W.E.May, P.G.W.Annis, 1970 most comprehensive "Swords and Sword Makers of England and Scotland", Richard Bezdek, 2003 " London Silver Hilted Swors", Leslie Southwick, 2001 These are most useful compendiums, but it sounds as if Mr. Langham is doing a great deal of primary research beyond these sources. These, especially 'May & Annis' (the venerable standby used since the 70s) have been the 'go to' sources on this topic for many years. Mr. Langhams work will be a welcome and important addition. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 24th November 2023 at 06:53 AM. |
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#5 | |
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Not surprisingly (possibly because the designer of the testing machine was a close friend of his) Thomas Gill's swords came out on top with a very low failure rate. Next were Runkels' imports. Woollys swords came last, with well over half failing the test. What followed was a lengthy exchange of letters published in the local papers between Gill and Woolly. Of interest is the time when Runkel was caught falsifying his import documentation to reduce the duty cost. Some 5,000 blades were confiscated and bladesmiths such as Gill then petitioned to have the blades given to them as compensation. Interestingly, these tests do not appear to have dented Woolly's reputation, as they remained one of the prominent bladesmiths of the time. Regarding the decoration, they produced blades for the government (remember that regular cavalry soldiers were still supplied their swords by the government), East India Company and private purchase officers. It's pretty common to find officer blades by Woolly that have been decorated in blue and guilt, with their logo on them. |
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#6 |
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Here is another little something from my book on the Shotley Bridge swordmakers:
Around 1830, an interesting story is told by an Oley descendant regarding his father (3rd generation William Oley) to travelling chronicler William Hone who was visiting Shotley Bridge: "James Justice Runkel, a German pedlar, who travelled in this country with his various wares, smuggled over from the continent a quantity of sword-blades, and, with a view of legalizing them and giving them currency, he applied to the father of my informant for permission to put his name upon them. This was accordingly done, and they were sold under the name of Oligar (sic). But government ultimately detected the fraud, and Oley gave evidence in London that the blades had not issued from his manufactory at Shotley." History: In 1787, Runkel was brought to trial at the Court of Exchequer for the alleged undervaluing of imported goods. The trial did not run to completion, but concluded when Runkel agreed to settle and pay two thirds of the value of the confiscated swords, as well as all court costs and expenses. His payment came to £1,480.00: a sum that would be worth around £172,600 in today’s money. You will appreciate, I am sure, that in 1787, the Oleys were suppliers of substantial quantities of blades and were, incidentally, regarded nationwide as the producers of the finest quality blades... as you would expect. In regard to Thomas Gill and sons: where did they learn to forge fine quality blades? |
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#7 |
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Thomas Gill's father was a maker of fine tools and files, Thomas continued that business before branching out to sword making. He was also quite an innovator so there is a fair chance he was partially self-taught since he would have an excellent understanding of the base metal working skills.
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