'Rose' Mark on the spine of Solingen blades

[Radboud]

1803 Pattern Infantry "Flank" Officers sabre.
The sword was assembled by Prosser, who was known to use Runkel blades earlier in his career. The blade has lost its blue and gilt, but has the standard decorations along with the GR cypher and the 1801 - 1816 coat of arms.



Cartouche


J: J: Runkel Solingen


1803 Pattern Light Company Officers sabre.
Assembled by Bennett, the blueing terminates in a straight line with GR and 1801 - 1816 British Coat of Arms.



Blade and Cartouche



J. J. Runkel Solingen
Note how the gilding terminates at Solingen, indicating that the engraving was done at time of manufacture.

[Radboud]

If other members have their own examples of late 18th to early 19th-century Solingen-made blades, I would love to see their markings to expand on the sample size.

[Jim McDougall]

This is a magnificent topic and thread! Thank you!
I had asked about the 'ROSE', or what appears to be a floral/vegetal device on the spine of blades near the hilt, and in some arcane fashion as shown in these examples.
Now that I see the context, I am curious on that these seem to appear on blades on French swords, or in European armies' swords during Napoleonic period.
There was mention of these devices being used on Solingen made blades.

I had thought that most blades on French swords of these times were from Klingenthal and of course so marked on the blade spines.

Is it possible that alternatively the blades with these devices on the spines had to do with Caissagnard in Nantes, who embellished blades with certain esoteric and cosmological themed motif?
It seems these blades could have come from Solingen? but would the motif including the 'rose' have been applied in Solingen? then these blades were fitted there.

I am looking forward to other examples of swords with this floral device on the blade spine, and more on these details. Thank you for this thread!

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Now that I see the context, I am curious on that these seem to appear on blades on French swords, or in European armies' swords during Napoleonic period.
There was mention of these devices being used on Solingen made blades.

I have seen other British swords non-Runkel blades that have the Rose, I just don't have one in my collection unfortunately.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I had thought that most blades on French swords of these times were from Klingenthal and of course so marked on the blade spines.

Only the ones made for the French army needed to be marked on the spine with the manufacturers' name (this includes some Solingen-made An XI light cavalry trooper swords).

Officers' private purchase of swords may or may not be marked, and many blades were imported to meet the demand for blades. Also I say the sword is French, but it could have just as easily belonged to one of the officers from another nation serving in the French Army.

As a side note, I have seen one pamphlet addressed to French officers following the invasion and take over of Solingen, translations for French to German sword terms for those looking to buy a new sword

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Is it possible that alternatively the blades with these devices on the spines had to do with Caissagnard in Nantes, who embellished blades with certain esoteric and cosmological themed motif?

I personally believe that Caissagnard was a cutler and assembled swords from purchased parts rather than manufacture them. I don't believe that the iconography seen on his swords started with him, as there are a lot of variations found on other swords. I suspect he was following the fashion of the time.

I have one Caissagnard blade and the spine is clear of markings.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

It seems these blades could have come from Solingen? but would the motif including the 'rose' have been applied in Solingen? then these blades were fitted there.

I am looking forward to other examples of swords with this floral device on the blade spine, and more on these details. Thank you for this thread!

Looking at the swords with the remaining blue and gilt, I believe that many blades were exported pre-decorated and sold to cutlers who would then fit them to hilts and scabbards.

[Radboud]

Looking through my reference photos I'm seeing a lot of early British swords with Solingen blades but not many where they provide photos of the spine. That said here are a few I did find.

Nice circa 1770 Georgian Horse Grenadiers sword:



Cartouche



Rose Mark



And another from the same era:

Georgian Cavalry Officer's sword


Cartouche


Rose Mark


British Lions' head pommel sabre


Typical Solingen cartouche


No Rose Mark or retailer, just Solingen

[corrado26]

There is a book published in 1885 showing all blade sins of Solingen since the oldest times, but these "Rose" signs are not to be found. So I think it is very doubtful if these roses are typical or special Solingen signs.

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by corrado26

There is a book published in 1885 showing all blade sins of Solingen since the oldest times, but these "Rose" signs are not to be found. So I think it is very doubtful if these roses are typical or special Solingen signs.

Respectfully I disagree, all the blades I have shown have the cartouche on the ricasso and either Solingen on the spine or a rose. These cartouches are not found on British or French-produced blades.

In the case of the S&K marked swords, we know the Solingen-based retailer that exported the rose-marked blades. Plus there are I.C.B marked smallswords with this cartouche (but no rose because of the trefoil blades):

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by corrado26

There is a book published in 1885 showing all blade sins of Solingen since the oldest times, but these "Rose" signs are not to be found. So I think it is very doubtful if these roses are typical or special Solingen signs.

Italian officers sabre
Circa 1790-1800 with Garde de Perle style hilt and horse hair pommel cap.



Cartouche
Square cartouche at the ricasso with Solingen engraved in one side and S & J or S & K on the other.


Rose Mark
Rose mark on the spine of the blade


Interestingly with this sabre, the blade decoration is more bespoke than normally seen

[Radboud]

Probably South German light cavalry officers' sabre (Bavaria, Wurttemberg, Hesse)



Not the best photos, but you can make out the cartouche and a hint of the rose mark




Saxon Light Cavalry officers sabre


Cartouche


Rose Mark


Source: Saxon Napoleonic era Officer's Sabre

And this sabre, I have it as German, but the style could be French as well, especially with that carp's tongue point.



Cartouche


Rose and S&K retailers mark.
This rose appears to be different from my S&K marked sabre. Different bladesmith?